Soldiers KIA in Ireland

[corisande]

And on closer inspection of that bottom bit of his service record

It appears, as always odd with army records that he was posted to "Foreign Services" with 1 MGC from 10 Aug 1920 until 22 Apr 1922. Notwithstanding the fact that he was killed 18 May 1921!

It does seem to establish that he was serving at the time of his death.

[simon2]

Gunner Robert Charles Cambridge

No : 1032133

Royal Field Artillery

DOD : 10/12/1920

age: 19

Son of James and Martha Cambridge, Kingston-upon-Thames.

Buried in Kingston-upon-Thames Cemetery.

Have no other details except on his headstone.

[mcassell]

The 'Foreign Services Details' Battalion, MGC, was formed in late summer 1919 - it certainly was in existence by October - to provide men for the reformed MGC Battalions that were destined for India (7, 8, 9, 11 and 12 Battalions), Ireland (1 merged with 4) and Constantinople (Z Company). It consisted of numbered cadres (at least ten) from which the battalions were created. 7 Battalion was formed around men of A and B Companies of 19 Battalion returning from Russia, 8 Battalion around the 8 (Special) Battalion returning from Russia and 11 and 12 Battalions from men of C and D Companies of 19 Battalion earmarked for Russia but were not needed there. The FSD Battalion seems to have been wound up in April 1920 by which time the remaining cadres had been formed into 9 Battalion.

The original 1 Battalion was reduced to a cadre at the end of July 1919 and this cadre moved to Ireland at the end of August 1919. Almost all of the remaining personnel were discharged by November and only a skeleton formation remained. Specialists (cooks, etc) were sent in January 1920 and the battalion was at about company strength by the beginning of April. 4 Battalion was merged with 1 Battalion in early April and a large draft was sent from 1st Depot Battalion in June. The Battalion's strength was then still only 512 out of an establishment of 1067 and C and D Companies were largely used for training new recruits. Part of the problem of maintaining the strength of the Battalion was the continual discharge of men for various reasons (wife desertion among them!). Like many men, Denney took his discharge to the D Reserve.

Hope this helps.

[corisande]

Thanks for that on Foreign Service Details. If I understand you correctly FSD applied to Ireland postings at that time (not withstanding the fact that Ireland was part of UK!)

What I don't understand why his record says FSD in Ballyvonaire from Aug 1920 to Apr 1922. I am re-posting the image above for clarity as to what I am talking about

1. Can you clarify that 1st Bn MGC was still in Ireland in Apr 1922. That date would normally coincide with when they withdrew from Ireland as part of the general withdrawal of the British Army

2. Can one read that service record to mean that he was in the D Reserve during that period, or does it have to mean that he was still a serving soldier in the Colours.

[mcassell]

I looked at the original record and to me the posting reads '22.4.20', not '22.4.22. Also, the entry date reads 10.8.20 so this would be after Denney's transfer to the Reserve. 1 Battalion was not at Chatham on 9.4.20 but at Ballyvonaire - mention of Chatham probably reflects where he was when he was posted - and FSD Battalion was at Shorncliffe near Folkestone (and Chatham). So, my interpretation is that the clerk entered wrong information on 10.8.20. In any case, 1 Battalion was back in England by April 1922. I have softened my position on Denney being on active service by virtue of being still in the D Reserve - unless he officially recruited as a spy.

[corisande]

Thanks for that input

1. I agree that 10 Aug 1920 has to be a clerical error for 9 Apr 1920. It follows directly after the ending of his previous posting 9 Apr 1920.

2. Yes having gone back to the original, I agree that the last entry is 22 Apr 1920.

So from the army's point of view do we have his career ending on that date? The bits of his record that remain do make it very difficult to follow his army career from Apr 1920 onwards.

[mcassell]

Sorry, I did not mean to imply the error was in the entry date, only that the entry 'FS Details' at Ballyvonaire was a mistake. I think Denney military career officially ended with his death as he was still a D Reservist and being paid as such. Contrary to what I thought earlier, he was not on active service with 1 Battalion in Ireland or any other MGC unit so officially he was not a military casualty.

Life for Irish ex-soldiers was very unpleasant during this period and there was great risk of being shot by the IRA whether working for the British or not. Another case that illustrates the difficulty for Irish ex-soldiers is that of 20961 Private David Dunworth MGC (ex-Royal Munster Fusiliers) who was discharged to the B Reserve on 21 February 1919. Dunworth was a native of Bruff, Limerick, one of the places garrisoned by a detachment of 1 Battalion MGC. On 10 June 1920 he took ship to the USA because, according to correspondence from his uncle, he did not want to get involved in politics. Dunworth died in New York in 1921 but as he had not fulfilled his reserve obligations, his mother was denied the balance of his pay. It is not hard to imagine poor Private Dunworth being pressured by his former MGC comrades to act as a spy and by the local IRA company to be an informant. While it may only be coincidence, the day after Dunworth went to the US, a combined MGC/RIC patrol was ambushed at Bruff and 189359 Private C. Constable of 1 Battalion was mortally wounded.

[mhifle]

Hi,

I also noticed on Patrick Joseph Dunney,s Service Records that on some sheets he is listed as RC while on other sheets as CofE, and also his

first name on one sheet was given as Paul.

Regards Mark

[corisande]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the IRA were after the MGC that day, I feel that DI Egan was more likely the target

Mark

Are you thinking that there might be 2 men's records mixed together. The numbers seem OK, but I will go over them again

[mhifle]

Hi,

I think the RC & CofE could just be a mistake not sure about the 'Paul'.

Mark

[mcassell]

Thanks for adding the Independent article, it adds quite a bit to the meagre information I have on the Bruff incident.

[corisande]

Gunner Parr

I have tried sending you a PM without success.

Click Take a look at this threadabout MGC men in Ireland and see if you can add anything

[PFF]

related links

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=169286&st=0&p=1647246&hl=+black%20+and%20+tans&fromsearch=1entry1647246

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162817&st=25&p=1583584&hl=+black%20+and%20+tans&fromsearch=1entry1583584

[corisande]

I work in Ballymount, and dont live far from Goldenbridge, so when I get time I will have a look for his grave, and get back to you.

Did you ever get to have a look. More information is coming up on Patrick Dunney from his family (one of whom is trying to post here at the moment, but needs approval) and from local historians who have been in contact with me over Lt Breeze, who was shot within a couple of miles of the Lead Mines referred to in an earlier post on Dunney

[chrislock]

As a former British soldier who served in NI during the 70's, I find this thread absolutely fascinating! My own service basically dealt with the then "now" time period.

Never did I receive back ground information or historical input of this depth regarding the history of the British Army in Ireland.

Excellent thread and so revealing.

Chris

[GraemeClarke]

Brendan

I was wondering if you could shed any light on what happned to this man,

Private 52697, Harry HARRISON

3rd Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment

Killed on Saturday 15 March 1919

Buried in Ballyglass Cemetery, County Westmeath, Ireland in Grave C.8

Your site suggests an 'accidental killing'

Regards,

Graeme

[RaySearching]

William Henry Telford

534369 "B" Sqdn 10th (Prince of Wales's Own Royal) Hussars

shares a grave with his grandparents

details on Corisande's Website here

regards Ray

[corisande]

Can we look at Dunney again. I have got now the IRA witness statements. They are all now on my notes on Dunney - click you can see the actions that took place at that time

I am personally convinced that the man was an undercover hero and a serving soldier - there is no question that The Dunney taken from his house and shot is the same man all the way through . Certainly the IRA believed that he was the British IO for the Dublin area. I would add that the family have now found where he was buried from church records (but grave is unmarked)

As I know many readers do not do links I have added excerpts from the relevant IRA witness statements. I really need Chris to ponder these and decide whether he can do anything for Dunney

[mcassell]

Corisande,

I think there is no connection between Patrick Dunney and the Sergeant 'Dunny" except that Patrick Dunney may have been killed by mistake for him. The man referred to in the IRA reports is almost certainly 1402818 Sergeant S. Dunning of the RGA. Dunning received the Medal of the OBE for gallantry and his citation (in WO35/181 in the NA) reads:

'This NCO has during his employment on special duty shown the greatest courage and resource. In spite of many warnings that he was in danger of assassination he persisted in his dangerous work and in one instance in the guise of a delegate from the HQ staff of the IRA called a special meeting of IRA officers and secured their arrest. On 19th April his murder was attempted but although wounded he succeeded in dispersing his attackers.'

His medal was presented in Dublin on 12 July 1921.

The details of the IRA witness reports are so similar to the above citation that I cannot but conclude that they are referring to Sergeant Dunning. I think one has consider that Patrick Dunney was not undercover - the letters in his file certainly suggest there were concerns about him being falsely accused of being a spy - and he was shot by mistake because of the similarity in names, as happened on both sides.

[corisande]

Thanks for your input. I will just let it run and see what else comes up. Certainly Dunney's file is "odd" and certainly the IRA believed that they killed the IO for Dublin area when they killed Dunney..

[mcassell]

Thanks. I just re-read the letters from Dunney's sister and landlady and they make a good case for him being shot by mistake. The letter from his sister notes that Patrick returned home to clear himself of rumours, and that from his landlady states the 'Boys' (possibly referring to the local IRA) were sorry over his death. I agree that does not exclude Patrick Dunney from being an undercover agent but I am convinced from the IRA statements that it was Sergeant Dunning they were after. Hopefully, something more will turn up.

[corisande]

The problem is that in spite of some of the British undercover work in Ireland being very bad, some was very good and Intelligence have made sure that little has remained on the files.The trick is in trying to see who was a high level British IO and who was a low level Irish local doing it for the off ten bob (I am not trying to wind anyone up with that remark)

Regrettably, but understandably, CWGC is not concerned whether a man was a "hero" or not, it is concerned with whether he was a serving soldier..

Certainly here there was a high level IO involved, Dunney or Dunning (maybe they are the same) Maybe ....

I am probably too close to the research to tell you which Dunney was

[mcassell]

I take your point but Dunning and Dunney cannot be the same person: Dunney was shot on 18 May 1921 while Sergeant Dunning received his medal in Dublin on 12 July 1921. The material in WO35/181 relates to two medal presentation ceremonies in Dublin, one on 12 July 1921, the other on 14 January 1922. The files note who was at the ceremony and who was not, the latter having the address where the medal was to be sent. So Sergeant Dunning was alive on 12 July 1921. As the IRA witness statements indicate the information about Sergeant Dunning was verbal, I suspect somewhere along the line Dunning became 'Dunny' and, unfortunately, Patrick Dunney paid the price.

Some years ago, I did try to track down Sergeant S. Dunning of the RGA. I found no service or pension record and 4 Medal Index Cards but none with the same army number. For what its worth, they are (all RGA):

123419 Gunner Samuel Dunning

24572 A/Bombadier S.J. Dunning

297081 Gunner Sidney C. Dunning

24572 A/Sergeant Samuel E, Dunning

Unless Dunning's medals turn up - his WW1 entitlement would have his former regimental number - I see no way of tracking him down.

[mcassell]

Very sorry, I did trace Sergeant Dunning in the MICs- teach me to read the back of my notes! He is Samuel Joseph Dunning, very likely the formerly 24572 Acting Bombadier, Royal Garrison Artillery listed above. Also, noted possibly Samuel Joseph Dunning, born South Dublin 1884?? Dunning's London Gazette entry (17 June 1921) notes the award to be dated 10 May 1921 and included in a list of MBEs for gallantry on the same date is Lieutenant John Edward Grundy MC, RGA. Possible IO, Dunning's handler???

[corisande]

Thanks, I too eventually got there

1884 Apr/Jun Born Dublin (ref Dublin South Vol 2. p 693)

1884 Apr 8. Baptised. Of 22 St Nicholas St, Dublin. Son of William Dunning and Margaret McClane

My current notes are on this link

The handlers were not necessarily the same regiment, as most of the IO stuff was ex-regimental