chrisharley9 Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Army Records Corisande I think you are right; there is a another closed file on him somewhere in the MOD system. It will be held at Glasgow & would under normal circumstances will not be available to anyone but the NOK & then there is a charge. With what we have at the moment there is not a case for submission as a non commemorated as his file shows transferred to reserve which means he was not in military service at the time of his death Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcassell Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 I am not sure I agree that Dunney was not in military service. Dunney had signed on for a 7 and 5 and his 5 year Reserve committment started in 1920 (original enlistment 1913). D Section Army Reserve was for those who had either filled their 2 years in B Section Army Reserve or had requested transfer to it. Soldiers in D Reserve were liable to call up on general mobilization and were paid (if I recall correctly) 3/6 a week. So, I would argue that Dunney was in military service. The key issue is perhaps whether he was on active service. General Macready's Martial Law Proclamation No. 1 of 12 December 1920 stated (paragraph f) that soldiers in Ireland were on active service. The AF 8050 in Dunney's file shows that his relatives were not issued with a plaque and scroll (the relevant entry is crossed out) which he should have received if he was on active service. It would appear that the WO did not consider Dunney as dying on active service - perhaps suggesting he may not have been officially "undercover" if indeed he was undercover at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 Gunner I take your point about the military service bit; as a Sect D reservist myself im still in military service. However as you point out he was not on active service or embodied at the time of his death Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny_doyle Posted 26 May , 2010 Share Posted 26 May , 2010 the following article gives some info about the employment issues facing ex soldiers in Ireland, the British Govt's recognition that ex-soldiers may drift toward the Sinn Fein camp etc and that efforts needed to be made to employ them e.g in admin jobs in barracks to release embodied troops.... http://www.ucc.ie/icms/irishmigrationpolic...201919-29().htm some info re the killing of ex-soldier John Donoghue, RDF, and the nasty death of Sgt John Herrod, SWB, in 1921 http://duleekmonument.webs.com/meathhistory19171921.htm http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=398551 Dunney's service record makes for interesting reading. Promoted to CSM, demoted to Sgt, recalled to the colours, demoted to Cpl. Interesting to see that his wife's address was Air Field Cottage, Tallaght. RAF Tallaght opened shortly before the Armistice and was used as a demobilisation centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pabbay Posted 23 June , 2010 Share Posted 23 June , 2010 Just downloaded his service record. 63 pages in all. Unfortunately there is an entry on it that shows it was transferred to the reserve on 5/5/1920 as Gunner Parr points out. Yet why would the army record the death of an ex soldier on his service records. Would like someone else to review the record Chris It may be possible that the recording of the death is something to do with a pension being cancelled. I have just researched a similar notation on a WW2 RN ratings service docs and the answer turned out to be that the man was a Naval pensioner and his docs were annotated with his DoD signifying his pension was no longer to be paid. Just a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 30 October , 2010 Share Posted 30 October , 2010 Brendan I was wondering if you could shed any light on this man, there doesn't seem to be anything on your site etc. Private 52697, Harry HARRISON 3rd Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment Killed on Saturday 15 March 1919 Buried in Ballyglass Cemetery, County Westmeath, Ireland in Grave C.8 Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterY Posted 20 December , 2010 Share Posted 20 December , 2010 QUOTE (Graeme Clarke @ May 3 2010, 08:59 AM) Hi Rob, Thanks for that. Any chance of posting the pic ? Regards, Graeme Graeme, Norman Fielding picture as requested. I have tried to find out some more about this man as I grew up very near to where this happened. From what I can gather, he was asked by an Intelligence officer in Buttevant Barracks to approach the local IRA and pretend that he was disillusioned with the British Army in an attempt to get information on local IRA members. The IRA men he approached however were aware of this tactic, having almost been taken in by it some weeks previously, and shot him. The book is excellent, with many good contemporary photographs. Regards, Cathal. Cathal, I have a press cutting from 1921 saved by my Grandfather who served with Fielding at Buttevent, both Blackburn boys and grew up in same area of the twon. The cutting, as do East Lancs records give no indication of why he was out on his own. It also says a farmers son was held under suspicion of the killing and a farm was burnt down in a reprisal. Do you know if anyone was formally charged with the killing and is the inforamtion above documentary or otherwise. Blackburn Newspapers of the time have a number of articles relating to this event and the full military funeral given to Fielding in Blackburn, gun carriage and six white horses. Thanks peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathal1972 Posted 27 December , 2010 Share Posted 27 December , 2010 Hi Peter, no, not quite documentary, rather me putting two and two together-the following is from "The War of Independence in North Cork-the story of Chareville No. 2 Cork Brigade-Old IRA" by Jim Meagher. It is a booklet reproduction of a collection of articles published in a local newspaper in the 1980s. "The British adopted a new tactic of sending out alleged "deserters" from Buttevant Barracks. They were merely spies trading for information on the innocent people of the countryside. One of them was taken by the IRA, kept in a house for questioning and then released. He was later seen to be among a raiding party of military on the house in which he was detained. The next deserter found was taken and shot within a few m iles of Buttevant." This is the work of an amateur historian, based on conversations with some of the people involved. It is not dated or referenced, but in the chapter I quote, the preceding passage refers to the ambush at Clonbannin (March 5th 1921), and the following paragraph refers to events in May 1921. Private Fielding's body was found on April 21st 1921, so I am assuming the passage refers to his death. With regard to the mention you make of a farm being burnt as a reprisal, the chapter goes on to say that two homes were destroyed, naming the owners, both of whom were active in the IRA. I would be very interested in seeing the cutting you have-any possibility you could scan and post it on the forum? Many thanks, Cathal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterY Posted 28 December , 2010 Share Posted 28 December , 2010 Cathal, attached is newspaper cutting from 1921 reporting death of Private Fielding. Given the content I'm sure its a local Blackburn Newspaper rather than from Ireland. I have yet to get copies of funeral details etc from other Blackburn Papers of the time. Will post when I have them. You refer to March events which I assume is killing of Cumming in ambush, a good report of this exists in New York Times Archive website. Will try and source copy Meagher's book here in england Thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathal1972 Posted 28 December , 2010 Share Posted 28 December , 2010 Cheers Peter-very interesting indeed. I suspect Meagher's book may be difficult to get in the UK. It was published in 2004 by the Charleville & District Historical & Archaeological Society. The articles were originally published in The Corkman newspaper in 1986. If you cannot source it and want me to hunt locally for a copy, PM me with your email address and I will see what I can do. Regards, Cathal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterY Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 Cathal, Further to your interest in Fielding the attached are taken from regimental records held at Fulwood Barracks in Preston. The record of his death is pretty blunt. The only other mention I found of his death being in the Regimental magazine which sends condolences to his family from the regiment. Alas no War Diary or other records seem to have been kept for the period. I am also trying to follow up on Reginald Hathaway, who deserted East Lancs and joined IRA, eventually executed by pro Treaty Free State Forces in Civil War. Thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterY Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 Cathal Most important part Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 Reginald Hathaway's execution is detailed on p377 of Tans, Terrors and Troubles by T Ryle Dwyer Basically Timothy Lyons and 5 colleagues were trapped in Clashmealcon Caves in Kerry by Free State forces. After a shoot out in which they killed a couple of the Free State men there was an impasse. Two of the 6 IRA men died while trying to climb out in the dark. Lyons gave himself up, and was hauled up the cliff on a rope the "shot while trying to escape". The last 3 were taken to Tralee (including Hathaway) and executed on 25 April 1923. The Irish Civil War ended in a ceasefire 2 days later. There is a full account here It is essentially the same and, from your point of view adds "At about 7 o’clock a car came up with an Officer. He looked at the prisoners and recognised one, Reginald Hathaway. The officer brought him to the cliffs edge where he received a savage beating. Lorries came for the prisoners at nightfall and their hands were tied and they were thrown in on the floor and brought to Tralee where they tried before a Military Tribunal. All three were found guilty and sentenced to death. James McEnery, Edward Greaney and Reginald Hathway were executed by firing squad at 8 o’clock on the morning of the 25th of April and buried in the prison yard. A year later they were reinterred in Raheala Graveyard, Ballyduff." Are you aware that for £30 and a death cert, you can get the service records of both men (you are meant to be the direct next of kin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 And the Times report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 And.. There is athread about Hathaway here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sooty Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 Dear Brendan My brother has a good picture of some men of the 2-5 Highland Light Infantry at The Curragh Ireland taken17 May 1917. Aren't sure if its a Company or a Troupe but willing to scan it and put it 'up' if it is of any use ? There are around 30 men on it, in uniform. Let me know. Regards, Sooty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendanLee Posted 7 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2011 Dear Brendan My brother has a good picture of some men of the 2-5 Highland Light Infantry at The Curragh Ireland taken17 May 1917. Aren't sure if its a Company or a Troupe but willing to scan it and put it 'up' if it is of any use ? There are around 30 men on it, in uniform. Let me know. Regards, Sooty Hi Sooty, Sorry for the delay in replying, I would be very interested in seeing the picture. Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFF Posted 8 January , 2011 Share Posted 8 January , 2011 Also: July 9, 1921 http://homepage.eircom.net/~corkcounty/Timeline/Lough.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterY Posted 3 February , 2011 Share Posted 3 February , 2011 More on Private Fielding. Interesting to read of his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterY Posted 21 February , 2011 Share Posted 21 February , 2011 Private George Mottley (Motley) was killed in April 1921 and finally buried in Jan 1927 according to Shipley Times and Express. His name does not appear on list of those killed or missing commemorated at service in Dublin. Looking for further information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 3 October , 2011 Share Posted 3 October , 2011 Private George Mottley (Motley) was killed in April 1921 and finally buried in Jan 1927 according to Shipley Times and Express. His name does not appear on list of those killed or missing commemorated at service in Dublin. Looking for further information. I have succeeded in establishing who George Motley was. For notes click this link. And certainly he was reburied in Shipley in 1927. However I cannot get a death cert for him (presumably not certified dead in 1921, and nobody bothered in 1927 assuming it had been done), nor can I find anything in Irish papers about the discovery of his body (presumably done discretely) Any further input on this man would be welcome. He certainly fulfills the criteria for CWGC recognition, but more work will be needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 4 October , 2011 Share Posted 4 October , 2011 I think you are right; there is a another closed file on him somewhere in the MOD system. It will be held at Glasgow & would under normal circumstances will not be available to anyone but the NOK & then there is a charge. With what we have at the moment there is not a case for submission as a non commemorated as his file shows transferred to reserve which means he was not in military service at the time of his death I have spent some time looking at Patrick Dunn(e)y and my feeling is that he was a serving soldier on the day he died, but as you say, without the closed file it cannot be proven. As well as the document Chris put up earlier in the thread there is a second on his file on Ancestry after his death My notes on him are on this link I have tracked down and emailed a member of the family, but am unsure whether I will get a reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 4 October , 2011 Share Posted 4 October , 2011 Hi, Looking at his Service Record there is note for a Date of Extraction 10 Nov 1936, and on his Medal Card there is an Extraction Date 17 Aug 1954. He is also posted to 'F S Details' in 1919 & 1920 which might stand for 'Foreign Service Details'. Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 4 October , 2011 Share Posted 4 October , 2011 I think you are correct. He seems to have been in "Foreign Service Details" in Ballyvonaire, (which is the Buttevant Camp in Cork) in Aug 1920 I bit of Googling leaves me no wiser as to what "Foreign Service Details" actually are. There are a number of instances of men on "Foreign Service Details" but they seem to be in the UK and are never explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 4 October , 2011 Share Posted 4 October , 2011 Hi, This is from the 1920 Army List Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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