GraemeClarke Posted 7 May , 2010 Share Posted 7 May , 2010 Brendan, From GP's roll (which he kindly forwarded to me), the two Royal Engineers killed with Morris appear to be Sapper 1856603 Albert Camm and Sapper 1853916 Albert Edward Powell. Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendanLee Posted 7 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2010 Graeme, Certainly looks like they are. Brendan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendanLee Posted 7 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2010 That's a NO then. The men we have an interest in are the men NOT presently commemorated by the commission. I take it that you intend to take these further? If so then Good luck with your research Brendan. Hi Neil, I have listed a couple on the Possible Non Commemorations thread and will be listing more. There is an added complication in that some of them continued to use their military title and were held in such high regard by their regiment they are recorded on the Regiments memorials they appear to be soldiers but had in fact left the army and joined either the Royal Irish Constabulary, Dublin Metropolitan Police or the Auxiliary Force. I am completely new too Non-Commemoration, until I joined the GWF I was under the impression that if a causality was not listed on the CWGC site then they were not a causality, if the GWF does one thing it is teach and I have certainly learned a lot since I have joined. Brendan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathal1972 Posted 13 May , 2010 Share Posted 13 May , 2010 Hi Rob, Thanks for that. Any chance of posting the pic ? Regards, Graeme Graeme, Norman Fielding picture as requested. I have tried to find out some more about this man as I grew up very near to where this happened. From what I can gather, he was asked by an Intelligence officer in Buttevant Barracks to approach the local IRA and pretend that he was disillusioned with the British Army in an attempt to get information on local IRA members. The IRA men he approached however were aware of this tactic, having almost been taken in by it some weeks previously, and shot him. The book is excellent, with many good contemporary photographs. Regards, Cathal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 14 May , 2010 Share Posted 14 May , 2010 Brendan Visit This Website will explain more about non commemorateds Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 14 May , 2010 Share Posted 14 May , 2010 'British Voices from the Irish war of Independence'. Can I ask if there is anything on either of these two men in that book. I enter the grey area of 1922 when the British were withdrawing.Jeremiah O'Callaghan who was shot in Mallow Barracks on 27 Aug 1922 by a Free State Soldier who was "cleaning his rifle" or the more well known Timothy Quinlisk shot 18 Feb 1920 by IRA at Cork. Certainly Quinlisk was operating with the knowledge of Dublin Castle but it is difficult to know if he was still officially a soldier or not. I have not been able to ascertain whether O'Callaghan was or not a serving soldier (his death cert says "ex-soldier" under profession) In this grey area of spies and or informers, finding what was official is difficult. Certainly the soldiers who had been with the Irish Brigade would have felt that they should have been accepted by the IRA, but as with the story above told in those salutary photographs, convincing them was a fraught process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraldryan Posted 14 May , 2010 Share Posted 14 May , 2010 Hi Brendan good luck in your project, it might interest you to know I have the uniforms of Major Gen H.H.Tudor who was Chief of Police Ireland 1919-22, the only man ever to hold this title. My grandad Head Constable RIC would have come under his command, he survived 3 ambushes in his time. Slan Gerry (Belfast) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathal1972 Posted 17 May , 2010 Share Posted 17 May , 2010 Can I ask if there is anything on either of these two men in that book. I enter the grey area of 1922 when the British were withdrawing.Jeremiah O'Callaghan who was shot in Mallow Barracks on 27 Aug 1922 by a Free State Soldier who was "cleaning his rifle" or the more well known Timothy Quinlisk shot 18 Feb 1920 by IRA at Cork. Certainly Quinlisk was operating with the knowledge of Dublin Castle but it is difficult to know if he was still officially a soldier or not. I have not been able to ascertain whether O'Callaghan was or not a serving soldier (his death cert says "ex-soldier" under profession) Corisande, nothing about either, I'm afraid. Cathal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 17 May , 2010 Share Posted 17 May , 2010 Thanks anyway In this business you leave no stone unturned ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcassell Posted 22 May , 2010 Share Posted 22 May , 2010 A possible consideration for commemoration might be 7807660 Corporal Patrick Dunney, Machine Gun Corps, who was shot dead by the IRA near Crumlin, Co. Dublin, on 18 May 1921. Dunney, an ex-Dublin Fusilier, was from nearby Clondalkin and had been discharged in Dublin to Army Reserve D on 5 May 1920. A report in the London Times of 20 May 1921 describes him as an ex-soldier but my impression is that officially he was a Reservist. Correspondence with an Irish medal collector some years ago indicated he is buried in Goldenbridge Catholic Cemetery, Inchicore though I cannot confirm that. He is not listed in the CWGC registers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 A possible consideration for commemoration might be 7807660 Corporal Patrick Dunney, Machine Gun Corps, who was shot dead by the IRA near Crumlin, Co. Dublin, on 18 May 1921. Dunney, an ex-Dublin Fusilier, was from nearby Clondalkin and had been discharged in Dublin to Army Reserve D on 5 May 1920. A report in the London Times of 20 May 1921 describes him as an ex-soldier but my impression is that officially he was a Reservist. Correspondence with an Irish medal collector some years ago indicated he is buried in Goldenbridge Catholic Cemetery, Inchicore though I cannot confirm that. He is not listed in the CWGC registers. Sorry but he will not make it for CWGC commemoration as he was not embodied at the time of his death Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 he was not embodied at the time of his death It is quite difficult to determine who was embodied at that time in Ireland. Many were retained as serving soldiers and worked under cover I am deep in researching the men murdered on Bloody Sunday 21 Nov 1920 as part of the Cairo Gang. Take a look at the details of Henry Angliss on this page The gazette entry shows he left the army 17 March 1920 with a gratuity, but was recognised to be a serving soldier when shot in Nov 1920, and has CWGC recognition. His is not a unique example,it is very difficult to determine who was "on the books" at that time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 I see. however that proof will be needed before submitting him to CWGC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Times of 20 May 1921 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 I have just had a look at his service record & it looks like you are right. He was a serving soldier when he died. The service record records his death as being in service. Should any of you wish to have his service record please PM me with your e mail Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishmen1916 Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Times of 20 May 1921 Chris, I work in Ballymount, and dont live far from Goldenbridge, so when I get time I will have a look for his grave, and get back to you. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Peter as my knowledge of Irish geography is somewhat hazy what area is this please Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Just downloaded his service record. 63 pages in all. Unfortunately there is an entry on it that shows it was transferred to the reserve on 5/5/1920 as Gunner Parr points out. Yet why would the army record the death of an ex soldier on his service records. Would like someone else to review the record Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishmen1916 Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Peter as my knowledge of Irish geography is somewhat hazy what area is this please Chris Chris, Goldenbridge is beside the Grand Canal at Inchicore Dublin, it is just south west of Kilmainham, and north of Crumlin, Bluebell and Ballymount are near by. See this link http://www.inchicore.info/ The sun is splitting the stones here to day, so I am on BBQ duty, so it will be next week end before I get up there. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcassell Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Just downloaded his service record. 63 pages in all. Unfortunately there is an entry on it that shows it was transferred to the reserve on 5/5/1920 as Gunner Parr points out. Yet why would the army record the death of an ex soldier on his service records. Would like someone else to review the record Chris One interesting point about Corporal Dunney is that though he was discharged to the Reserve on 5 May 1920 he was issued with an Army number (7807--- to 7817--- for the MGC) which, at least in the case of 1st Battalion MGC men in Ireland, was issued on 16 October 1920. My impression from his service record is that Corporal Dunney, who had enlisted into the Royal Dublin Fusiliers Special Reserve in May 1909 and then in the Regular Army in March 1913 for 12 years, was transferred to the Reserve to complete his period of engagement. So, in my opinion, the number change and the record of his death in his service record reflect the fact that he was still officially in the Army. Whether he was "undercover" is hard to determine though the two letters - one from his sister, the other from his landlady - in his file indicate that there were "rumours" about him in the district. The case of Henry James Angliss, who incidentally served in 8th (S) Battalion MGC in North Russia, is interesting as I was told many years ago by a relative of Lieutenant William Genders (also 8th Battalion MGC) that when he (Genders) returned from Russia he was recruited with another MGC man by Basil Thomson of Scotland Yard for intelligence work in Ireland and that the other man was shot by the IRA. My assumption has always been that this other man was Angliss though I have absolutely no proof of this. Note that the Memorial Service program I posted earlier shows Angliss as Royal Inniskilling Fusilers (Reserve of Officers) so his Reserve status may have justified his commemoration by the CWGC. So why was Reservist Corporal Dunney, undercover or not, not thought deserving.....? gp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Whether he was "undercover" is hard to determine though the two letters - one from his sister, the other from his landlady - in his file indicate that there were "rumours" about him in the district. That is the rub. As you say, compare Angliss and Dunney (or even Quinlisk) It is virtually impossible to say who was "an active" soldier, but working onder cover or a reserve soldier shot "on suspicion" Files are hidden or not opened for a long time in this area. I discovered today that the inquest on McCormack and Wilde (two more of the Bloody Sunday victims, and men not in CWGC graves) was held secret till 2003. (WO 35/159B. Proceedings of a court of inquiry in lieu of inquest on Captain P. McCormick (sic) and Mr L. A. Wilde, London Evidence of the medical examiner) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 This is one of the documents on his file which is throwing me. Anyone like to comment on what it is Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Chris Can you clarify his service record. Given he has a "new" number dating from Aug 1920, I thought that his service record should have been with MOD and having to applied for individually rather than on the open records I am not enough of an aficionado of how the service records were stored. Putting it differently, I thought that if a man had a "new" service number, than his records were always available from MOD. And were not with burnt records. It looks from that as if someone needed to look in that service record in 1936. Was it closed for a longer period than normal service record files? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendanLee Posted 24 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2010 An extract from Aspects of the War of Independence and Civil War in Wicklow 1913-1923 by Henry Cairns and Owen Gallagher Published by the Old Bray Society Some British Intelligence Activities in the Brigade Area'. Tells of how British spies used a house near the Ballycorus lead mines as a base. 'The Wicklow IRA found out and attacked the house. Two British intelligence officers were killed and three wounded in the gunfight. Incredibly, the British later returned to use the same house as a base again. It was attacked by the IRA for a second time and two more British officers were killed. The main spy, Patrick Dunny of Inchicore, managed to escape on both occasions but was captured and executed by the IRA in May 1921.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 The main spy, Patrick Dunny of Inchicore, managed to escape on both occasions but was captured and executed by the IRA in May 1921.' Trouble is, as I have learned with those sorts of quotes by both sides, is "they would say that wouldn't they". One sides "shot the man while he was trying to escape" is the other sides "we shot him because he was a spy". In most cases the poor man was probably neither trying to escape nor a spy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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