Identifying Soldier's Uniform

[BarrattFamily]

Hi,

I am new to this forum and I'm hoping that some kind person may be able to help me identify this soldier's uniform. I have been told it is my great grandfather but the person who gave it to me wasn't 100% sure. I thought if I could date it or identify the uniform I could possibly find a record of him serving in a war. At this stage I don't know much about him but he may have been too old for The Great War. My grandfather was born in 1901 with older siblings so my great grandfather was born sometime around 1865.

Here is the photo.

Thanks for taking the time to help.

Kind regards

Leonie - Australia

[Peter Doyle]

As a start, his cap badge indicates he's from the King's Liverpool Regiment...

Peter

[BarrattFamily]

As a start, his cap badge indicates he's from the King's Liverpool Regiment...

Peter

Thanks Peter. That has given me a great start.

[Peter Doyle]

No worries, happy to help. Liverpool connections in the family?

Peter

[Ken Lees]

I agree - King's Liverpool Regiment, but not the 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th Battalions who all wore different cap badges.

What was your great grandfather's name? Any other details you can add would help us to help you - birthplace, where he lived, wife's name, etc.

Could the photo be of your grandfather's brother? If so, what were his brothers' names?

Ken

[4thGordons]

He appears to be wearing an obsolete pattern (Slade Wallace) waistbelt.

This might suggest either a pre-war soldier in a picture that predates the war, or a wartime volunteer issued with obsolete equipment as a stop gap.

Not much help so more in the way of an observation.

Chris

[BarrattFamily]

No worries, happy to help. Liverpool connections in the family?

Peter

Hi Peter,

It's actually my husband's great grandfather but because it's easier to write (and I do all of the work) I've claimed him as mine!!

The son of this man (Steve's grandfather) had a wife and 3 kids in Liverpool but decided to become a Merchant Seaman and jump ship in Australia back in 1929. He arrived here and married as a single man. Steve's mother is 72 and we have just discovered all of this. Needless to say we now have strong connections to Liverpool. We are going for a visit later this year.

Leonie

[BarrattFamily]

I agree - King's Liverpool Regiment, but not the 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th Battalions who all wore different cap badges.

What was your great grandfather's name? Any other details you can add would help us to help you - birthplace, where he lived, wife's name, etc.

Could the photo be of your grandfather's brother? If so, what were his brothers' names?

Ken

Hi Ken,

I will tell you all that I know and hopefully I don't bore you...

'My' great grandfather's name was Edward James BARRATT. He was born in Liverpool and married there in 1886. His wife's name was Ann (Annie) O'Connor. Depending on what record you take his birth year ranges from 1858 to 1863. 1858 from all of the census - 1861 from his marriage - 1863 from his death.

I really don't know his brother's names. I have found an Edward Barrett in the census prior to his marriage that seems to match but because I don't have his birth certificate I can't definitely say this is my Edward Barratt. It's a common name to find spelled incorrectly.

Edward Barratt was a cabinet maker (journeyman) who travelled (between the mid 1890's to early 1900's) to Manchester & Stockport with his family presumedly for work. The rest of his life was spent in Liverpool. I don't have a lot of info on him but nothing I have says he was a soldier at any time. All records say he was a cabinet maker. I don't have any records on him from between the 1911 census and when he died in 1923.

Addresses I have for him are:

22 Glasshouse Lane, Old Swan, West Derby - 1886

1 House, 9 Court, Eldon St, Liverpool - 1888

4 House, 32 Court, Burlington St, Liverpool - 1889

18 Tenterden St, Liverpool - 1889

4 House, 20 Court, Tatlock St, Liverpool - 1891

5 Bury St, Stockport - 1899

5 Brook St, Manchester - 1901

75 Ann St, Stockport - 1901

5 Rupert Terrace, Garden Lane, Everton Brow, Liverpool - Between 1901 & 1911 to 1923

Thanks for your help

Leonie

[BarrattFamily]

He appears to be wearing an obsolete pattern (Slade Wallace) waistbelt.

This might suggest either a pre-war soldier in a picture that predates the war, or a wartime volunteer issued with obsolete equipment as a stop gap.

Not much help so more in the way of an observation.

Chris

Thanks Chris for your help.

I've found forums like this to be invaluable. When I received a Merchant Seaman record of service card recently I was able to go on a similar forum and by posting a scan of it was able to decipher most of it. It's all of the observations and back and forth discussions that help piece the whole story together.

Thanks again

Leonie

[BarrattFamily]

I have just emailed the person who gave me the photo to see if they could tell me any more about it. She told me that she has written on the back of it 'Dad's grandfather' and that is all that she knows. This opens up the possibility of the soldier in the photo now being either Edward Barratt or John Willoughby. John Willoughby was born in Birkenhead in 1861. He married Angelina Rothwell in 1885 and he was a labourer.

[Kitty VAD]

Hi there,

just a small thing (more WW2 than anything) but be prepared that a lot of his addresses in Liverpool will no longer exist. Tatlock street exists (well the pub on the corner does-The Castle) but the Blitz changed a lot of streets. Tenterden St too, there's only one old building down there. Burlington St exists but is a new development.

Good luck with your research!

K

[BarrattFamily]

Hi there,

just a small thing (more WW2 than anything) but be prepared that a lot of his addresses in Liverpool will no longer exist. Tatlock street exists (well the pub on the corner does-The Castle) but the Blitz changed a lot of streets. Tenterden St too, there's only one old building down there. Burlington St exists but is a new development.

Good luck with your research!

K

Hi Kitty,

Thanks for your reply. I'm looking forward to seeing Liverpool even if we don't see actual houses the family lived in. We've made contact with family still living there so it will be great to catch up with them.

We were lucky in Australia to have missed out on all of the 'close to home' destruction and it's so hard to imagine being bombed. The children would have been terrified... I visited England last year and several places I visited had been rebuilt after the war or records had been lost in the war and it was so hard to imagine...

My husband & I each had a grandfather who were both in ww1 - one was English and one was Australian. Thankfully they both came back and although neither of them talked about their experiences they left us letters and diaries that tell us in great detail what they went through. My father gave me another letter yesterday dated 15th June, 1917 that he 'found' where his father wrote home describing his experiences at the battle of Messines. It was a very timely letter as the day before was ANZAC day.

Thanks again for your interest in our story.

Leonie

[MBrockway]

We were lucky in Australia to have missed out on all of the 'close to home' destruction and it's so hard to imagine being bombed.

Leonie,

Australia has been bombed - by the Japs who bombed Darwin in WW2. There were 63 raids on the northern part of Australia in 1942 and 1943, mainly NT and Queensland, with many more attacks on offshore islands and coastal shipping.

By contrast mainland USA only had a single seaplane bombing raid on Oregon and some random bombing from booby trap incendiary bombs attached to weather balloons sent over on the jetstream most of which came down in wilderness areas along the Pacific Coast.

Hawaii of course had Pearl Harbour.

Cheers,

Mark

[BarrattFamily]

Leonie,

Australia has been bombed - by the Japs who bombed Darwin in WW2. There were 63 raids on the northern part of Australia in 1942 and 1943, mainly NT and Queensland, with many more attacks on offshore islands and coastal shipping.

By contrast mainland USA only had a single seaplane bombing raid on Oregon and some random bombing from booby trap incendiary bombs attached to weather balloons sent over on the jetstream most of which came down in wilderness areas along the Pacific Coast.

Hawaii of course had Pearl Harbour.

Cheers,

Mark

Sorry Mark, thanks for your reply and I did know that. I live in Newcastle and we were bombed but it was before my time. http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/japsubs/japsshell03.htm

I really meant more that we escaped the horror of living with regular bombings and sirens going off all the time and the destruction that England (and others) suffered. I just think we were pretty sheltered from all of that here. We were very lucky to live so far away in Australia and (except for the tragic loss of so many men/women) got through the war relatively unscathed. I mean that in the sense that we didn't have to live in fear on a daily basis. I am only speaking from my parents experiences because I was born in 1962 and can only go by what we were taught in school, what my parents have told me and now what I am learning through my family history research. Family History is teaching me so much that I didn't know about WW1 and WW11. I was lucky enough to not have had any of my family in other wars. It makes you appreciate your grandfathers and wish I had known about this when they were alive. My husband's grandfather had just turned 17 when he became a stretcher bearer for the RAMC and my son is turning 17 this year. Can you even imagine…

[Wardog]

I may be getting lost with the various relatives mentioned but if the pictured man was born in the mid 1860's, he would have been in his 50's during the war. Even with the 'tash' I think he looks younger than that. I notice he has his chin strap up behind his badge. Cheers, Paul.

[BarrattFamily]

I may be getting lost with the various relatives mentioned but if the pictured man was born in the mid 1860's, he would have been in his 50's during the war. Even with the 'tash' I think he looks younger than that. I notice he has his chin strap up behind his badge. Cheers, Paul.

Thanks Paul, Sorry for the confusion... I tend to rave on a bit!! The cousin who gave me the photo says it is one of her grandfathers Edward Barratt snr or John Willoughby both born in Liverpool in the early to mid 1860's. Did men fight in WW1 when they were in their 50's? Excuse my lack of knowledge but what does it mean when the chin strap is behind the badge?

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it. Leonie

[Wardog]

http://www.1914-1918.net/recruitment.htm Well, he does not look to have rank or other insignia to show that he might have been in the service for a while, and if he had enlisted in his 50s he had lied about his age. Possible. I just wonder if the picture is of a man of that age. If anything a harder life caused a 50 year old man to look older than a 50 year old today. I guess though he could have been a fit, healthy and young tooking 50 something. Regards, Paul.

[Wardog]

Just to check-Steve's Grandad who jumped ship in '29, when was he born? No chance he served in the Great War? All depends who put 'Dads Grandfather' on the picture and when. You mention in your 1st post a grandfather born 1901- Steve's Grandfather? My Grandfather was born in 1900 and joined up at 18 in 1918. Most of those that served would have been born 1880-1900. Just wondering if this could be a generation later than you think, a Grandad or Great Uncle.

Oh- the cousin mentioned put dad's grandad on the card? Yes I am geting tied up. I'll just stick with the picture looks to be of a younger man than your given dates of birth point to. Cheers, Paul.