'War honour for heroine'

[tjpatti]

Hi there

Can anyone help?

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/archive/2...roydon_heroine/

Thanks

Teresa

[johnny_doyle]

might be worth getting her death cert as it may hold some info. Her death is registered in Pancras district, 1918, 1b 153.

[Jim Strawbridge]

What a load of cods wollop in the newspaper article. So much supposition and so little fact. Her father was a forman in a factory. She probably never served overseas. And from the date I would say that she probably died of Spanish 'flu so no brave act from which she died.

[grantowi]

Still, She did serve and so deserves to be remembered with respect.

In 1901 her Farther WAS a supervisor in a sewing machine factory and in 1911 as a Sewing Machine Agent

Grant

[royalredcross]

Living in Croydon, I would normally respond to an item like this, but I tend to agree with Jim. There is no evidence that she served overseas and though her father was a supervisor, she was a maid in a girl's school. Croham Hurst is certainly a private school but I'm not sure I would call it prestigious.

I think it's an attempt to create a "story" from very little evidence.

Norman

[grantowi]

CWGC has loads of entries for men who never served oversea's, but they still served - if they hadn't it would have ment less men oversea's - and died.

Do these deserve less respect than those people who died oversea's, or do we remember them all with the same respect ?

And since when has the wealth of the person (or their family) had any bearing on them being remembered - in the census, she is described as a servent school maid, not that a lofty a position.

If the story makes just 1 person go and see her grave and reflect upon her life, then its done a good job.

Grant

[Sue Light]

The problem really lies with Mr Roote. He seems to be working under a misapprehension - that to be included in the CWGC Debt of Honour Register a person needed to die of a cause attributable to the war. Not so of course, and any serving officer of soldier was entitled to commemoration whatever their cause of death, including being run over by a bus. As a member of the women's army, Miss Cotton would also be commemorated whatever her cause of death as long as she was serving at the time she died. Her death need not be a mystery any longer - simply get her death certificate and find out.

Sue

[auchonvillerssomme]

Hold on whats everyone on about - she is commenorated by the CWGC.

Mick

Name: COTTON, ROSE

Initials: R

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Worker

Regiment/Service: Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps

Age: 26

Date of Death: 23/10/1918

Service No: 44785

Additional information: Daughter of Charles Cotton, of 57, Sangley Rd., South Norwood, London.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: R7. 1632.

Cemetery: CROYDON (MITCHAM ROAD) CEMETERY

[Sue Light]

Mick

Her commemoration is fine - the problem I think is with the local paper and Mr Roote the historian pushing a story in which she must be a 'heroine' just because they've found her entry on CWGC. Over-egging the pudding just a little I think.

Sue

[auchonvillerssomme]

They are makning a real effort to immortalise everyone

http://www.cags.org.uk/pdfs/pressrel-2010-01.pdf

[grantowi]

He seems to be working under a misapprehension - that to be included in the CWGC Debt of Honour Register a person needed to die of a cause attributable to the war. Not so of course,

I thought that was the main criteria to be on the CWGC, to be killed during active service or of a cause attributed to their time on active service.

There have been many men who were dismissed from the services with injurys / illness, who have later died (as civillian's) of these injurys / illness and have been included on CWGC, because the cause of death was attributed to their time on active service

Grant

[Sue Light]

If a soldier died after discharge then his CWGC commemoration was/is dependent on having died of a war-attributable cause, but for those who died while still serving the cause of death was irrelevant - they were all commemorated. For some women the criteria were different as they were counted as civilians, but WAAC/QMAAC were, I believe, subject to exactly the same criteria as the men.

Sue

[grantowi]

But we don't know if Rose Cotton was still on active service when she died, she may well have been dismissed

Grant

[auchonvillerssomme]

At least she wasn't executed for a military offence, that clears one area of embarrasment.

[PBI]

Her Brother was KIA

Cotton,William,Frank, 8th Q.R.W.S.

b.19 October 1897.The Son of Mr & Mrs Charles Cotton,57 Sangley Rd,South Norwood.

Educated Tenison School Croydon.

Single Man.Aged 39

Horticultural Builder.

Resided at 240 South Norwood Hill.

Enlisted, September 1914.

Fell at Delville Wood,Somme,2nd September 1916.

No known grave..Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

The above information is contained in the Book "Croydon in the Great War".....There is no entry regarding Rose Cotton.

[tjpatti]

Thank you to all of you who have responded to my original posting; I will send a link to this page to Kirsty Whalley, the journalist on the Croydon Guardian. I agree that obtaining the death certificate is the next step and will suggest it to Kirsty.

I know nothing about Rose Cotton but I do live in Croydon and may well take time out to visit her grave. I am puzzled because I thought the CWGC erected Portland stone headstones over graves on their register and tended the graves in perpetuity - from the picture in the newspaper, Rose's grave looks like it has no such headstone and appears to be neglected.

Thank you, PBI, for the information on Rose's brother. I am visiting Thiepval in a week's time so I'll look out for his name on the Memorial.

Again, many thanks to all for contributing to this thread.

Teresa

[auchonvillerssomme]

His medal card shows previously 4671 Army Cyclist Corps.

Mick

[grantowi]

Teresa,

I believe that at the time, the family had the option of not having a CWGC headstone, but having a Family one instead, have a look at this thread -

Grant

[tjpatti]

Thanks for your reply, Grant, and for being a steady voice throughout this thread.

I have to say that given the choice of whether to accept the offer of the CWGC to erect a headstone and tend the grave in perpetuity or to decline and erect my own headstone with the very real possibility of the grave falling into neglect and disrepair once those who'd made the choice had passed away, I know which I'd choose.

Best regards

Teresa

[tjpatti]

What a load of cods wollop in the newspaper article. So much supposition and so little fact. Her father was a forman in a factory. She probably never served overseas. And from the date I would say that she probably died of Spanish 'flu so no brave act from which she died.

Jim,

Thank you for replying to my post.

However, may I say that if you are going to slam the newspaper for basing its article on 'so much supposition and so little fact', then you should avoid falling into the same trap yourself - "She probably never served overseas. And from the date I would say that she probably died of Spanish 'flu so no brave act from which she died".

The fact is, Rose Cotton is a woman - one of a very few - who is commemorated on the CWGC register. My purpose in posting the link to the article was to see if anyone knew why she, above most of the other women who died serving this country, merited the honour. I'm going to hazard a guess that it wasn't because she 'probably died from Spanish flu'.

Regards

Teresa

[stevem]

The Ancestry version of SDGW has the following:

Name: Rose Cotton

Birth Place: Teddington, Middx.

Residence: London

Death Date: 23 Oct 1918

Rank: Worker

Regiment: Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps

Number: 44785

Type of Casualty: Died

Theatre of War: Brough - Sic

The Theatre of War should, as always, be ignored.

[Jim Strawbridge]

Jim,

Thank you for replying to my post.

However, may I say that if you are going to slam the newspaper for basing its article on 'so much supposition and so little fact', then you should avoid falling into the same trap yourself - "She probably never served overseas. And from the date I would say that she probably died of Spanish 'flu so no brave act from which she died".

The fact is, Rose Cotton is a woman - one of a very few - who is commemorated on the CWGC register. My purpose in posting the link to the article was to see if anyone knew why she, above most of the other women who died serving this country, merited the honour. I'm going to hazard a guess that it wasn't because she 'probably died from Spanish flu'.

Regards

Teresa

Teresa, You have caught me on a tetchy morning but you really should appreciate that I do know something about WW1 serving female casualties. The newspaper article was badly written, badly researched and intended to be sensationalist about a woman from Croydon elevating her to the level of a war heroine with a special life and a special death. I intend no disrespect to her but all of the female casualties played their part and to elevate this one above them does the rest a dis-service. Now falling into the trap of supposition my comments were not total supposition. 119 serving women died in October 1918 whilst on service of which Rose Cotton was one.

drowned 10

meningitis 1

dysentry 1

enteric 1

cerebral haemorrhage 1

burns 1

pneumonia/influenza 90

I still have a further 14 whose cause of death I have yet to find.

I think that you will agree that the Law of Probability falls on the side of Rose Cotton probably having died of Spanish 'flu. Turning to whether she served overseas she does not have a Medal Information Card. Whilst not conclusive it does point to the fact that she did not serve overseas otherwise a medal would have been issued and show where overseas she would have served. I do not know for definite on either count so any comments have to be supposition until proved one way or the other. But I would bet my house on me being right on both counts.

[Heid the Ba]

Teresa,

Sue Light and Jim Strawbridge, two of the forum experts on women and the Great War, are of the opinion that the journalist is making too much of this. In the absence of other evidence I'll take their words for it.

Perhaps obtaining the death certificate would resolve this?

[grantowi]

I alway thought that this forums main aim was to remember the fallen and to ensure that they are never forgotton - isn't this why many of us are beavering about over old memorials?

The press has a reputation to supply storys that are in the norm inaccurate - always have and always will - but as a forum shouldn't we be trying to set the record straight ?

If she volunteered to serve, then that places her along side all of the others who volunteered, they were not forced to go and as far as Im concerned that makes each and every one of them a Hero.

Joe public seems unaware that women served in WW1 - apart from nurses and entertaineers - and if the local paper's campaign brings that fact alone to the public then it's good news.

Her familys wealth, occupations and even her cause of death are all immaterial, she died in the service of her country and for that she deserves to be rememberd with respect and honour

As Teresa has already said she has sent the link to the journalist, this is a chance for us to tell the world (well Croyden anyway) the true facts about Rose Cotton and maybe get others intreasted in the Great War.

Grant

[tjpatti]

Hello Jim and Heid the Ba',

2 things:

Firstly, this was my first posting under 'Women In The Great War'; indeed, it was the first time I had ever visited this section of the Forum. I had no intention of causing offence to Jim and I hope I didn't, but when I wrote my reply I had no idea he was an acknowledged expert - I hope he doesn't mind too much, knowing this, when I say his first reply came across to me as rather disparaging huf'n'puf. I have since taken time to investigate other posts and can see his opinions are valued and valuable. Indeed, his second posting on this thread is very informative and I read it with interest.

Secondly, I didn't post the link to the Croydon Guardian article so that a discussion would ensue on its merits or journalistic value - I simply wanted to know if anyone could provide information on Rose Cotton. You must remember that the CG is a local paper and that there are people in Croydon who will be interested in following the story even if, in the wider sphere, it is felt that it is being 'bigged up'. There is the other aspect that the names of Rose Cotton and her brother have now been brought to the attention of Croydon Guardian readers and to 258 (at the last count) Forum members - I shall be at Thiepval next week and will be seeking out the name of William Frank Cotton on the Memorial - surely that means something positive has come out of the article being printed?

I have suggested to the journalist who wrote the article that she should obtain the death certificate and have asked that, if she does, she sends me the details so that I can post them here.

Kind regards

Teresa