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lukerwhite

1914-15 Star has number back to front?

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lukerwhite

Hi there. I have just bought the 1914-15 Star, british war medal and victory medal off of someone who i met through ancestry.

I was over the moon to have the chance to buy them as they are my great great grandmothers brothers medals. I think i paid over the odds for them (£255 in total) but it was a chance of a lifetime to get them i suppose.

They are for F Nagington 8123 Kings shropshire light infantry. I have quit a bit of info on him and a picture from a newspaper clipping, MIC and CWGC record etc so i know his details are correct

On arrival i inspected them to find that the 1914-15 star is engraved on the back with his details although his service number 8123 actually reads 812 and then a 2 upside down. Is this a fake?

It doesn't look like a fake. The medal is defiantely old and has not been cleaned, It has the original ribbon and also the Mons Clasp.

What do you think. Is it common for errors on medals to be made or should i be worried?

post-53777-1271260993.jpg

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Dogflud

Hello Luke,

Any chance you could post a photo of the reverse of the star?

Just one point to make on what you said. You said it was a 1914-15 Star. The star you have posted is a 1914 Star and has a bar on the ribbon. This means his medal group will command a premium over what could be asked for a 1914-15 Star trio, and as he was a casualty this would push the price even higher. At £255.00 I think you have paid a fair price for the group and as they are family medals, I think you've got a bargan!

I'm lucky enough to have our family medals, three generations from my Great Granddad, both Granddads, a Great Uncle, down to mine. Neither of my parents were in the services, so no medals from the generation above me.

Well done on bringing them home.

Cheers,

Nigel

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Staffsyeoman

1. A photograph of the back would be helpful - they can always be stitched back onto the card.

2. It's not a 1914-15 Star, it's a 1914 Star and Bar

3. You have not paid excessively for a 1914 Star and Bar trio to a casualty - depending on date of death it might even be a bargain

The ribbons on the BWM and Victory are modern replacements; the 1914 Star's looks contemporary.

My inclination is that the 'upside down 2' is a poorly struck '3', but without seeing...

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lukerwhite

It is definately an upside down 2 and should be a 3.

He died in Armentieres on 25 May 1915.

post-53777-1271263732.jpg

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lukerwhite

Here are the other medal sides. They look and read fine.

post-53777-1271264089.jpg

post-53777-1271264131.jpg

post-53777-1271264146.jpg

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Guest Rundberg

Luke,

Looking at the medal I find it hard to believe that it would be anything near a fake, just a simple misstake when impressed.

The over all impression with the original ribbon is just superb!

The price is ok in my book. Regarding the fact that it´s a trio to a relative I would regard it as a bargain.

If I had collected the regiment that is about what I would be prepared to pay for a WW1 casualty.

Nice trio!

Chris

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PhilB

And the 1 on the star is upside down! I`d be perfectly happy with it.

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Martin Bennitt

what does the bar mean? One assumes you can't award a 1914 star twice

cheers Martin B

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lukerwhite
what does the bar mean? One assumes you can't award a 1914 star twice

cheers Martin B

I beleive it is the Mons Clasp (sometime the star is nicknamed the Mons Star). I twas awarded to those who were under fire in those first few months of the war and fought so bravely whilst all the clogs clicked into place back home.

I have read that five out of every 8 stars awarded had the mons clap but i am not sure how true that is.

I'm sure someone will put me right if i have mislead you. You sometimes miight see a herald rose badge on the star ribbon if the badge is not worn. You were only aloud to were this if you had the mons clap.

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nthornton1979

The bar is for soldiers who served 'under fire' from August to the 22nd Nov 1914. There is usually a mention on the medal index card as to the 'Clasp & Roses' (bar) been issued.

I think the price is a good one. 1914 Mons trios with confirmed clasp entitlement tend to sell for around or above the £300 mark. A friend bought one a month back for £325 and he was KIA later in the war (not 1914 - Which tends to increaae value)

Neil

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lukerwhite
The bar is for soldiers who served 'under fire' from August to the 22nd Nov 1914. There is usually a mention on the medal index card as to the 'Clasp & Roses' (bar) been issued.

I think the price is a good one. 1914 Mons trios with confirmed clasp entitlement tend to sell for around or above the £300 mark. A friend bought one a month back for £325 and he was KIA later in the war (not 1914 - Which tends to increaae value)

Neil

Thanks neil,

Do you think the upsidedown number 2 instead of 3 is anything to worry about, i have read that mistakes were corrected and if this is the case then there would be like a divet in the metal. I can only assume it wasn';t noticed???

I have attatched his MIC. I do not see any mention of the bar and clasp although i dont really know what i am looking for! Is it there and im missing it?

post-53777-1271270896.jpg

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nthornton1979

Luke,

I'd say there was nothing to worry about but I'm no expert. There were thousands of medals issued with errors but it was down to the recipient (or their family if killed) to return the medal(s) for ammendment. Some did, some didn't.

I suppose it could be argued that the error leans more towards the medal been genuine. If you are going to 'fake' a medal then surely you would make sure it is accurate before circulating it. On the other hand, someone who is naming up hundreds of medals none stop is bound to make mistakes.

Neil

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Patrick ODwyer

I think the ribbon on the Star is also the wrong way around. It should be Red, White and Blue (not Blue, White, Red)

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archangel9

The clasp is referenced on the MIC. I think they are genuine and a bargain. As others have said why forge a mistake? The 8 also looks upside down to me.

Congratulations, a great buy :D

John

post-38480-1271272774.jpg

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welshdoc

There is absulutely no need to worry about the error on the star, Ive not seen this one before but the name can be wrong the number wrong even the Rgt eg RWF verses RDF Lanc vs Linc and so on. Its not at all uncommon. You are lucky to get a family members medals at the price in particular as he was a casualty I would suggest the value of the group on the open market to be over £300.

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lukerwhite

Fantastic! Thanks to everyone for your help. You have put my mind at ease.

By the way i think the erlier forumite was right - the stars ribbon is in the wrong sequence - should be red, white, blue from what i have seen on pictures i have seen on the web!

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nthornton1979

I've just had a look through the KSLI Regiment History around the time he was killed but it very briefly skips over that time period with nothing worthy of note. (ie no major action took place at this time)

You relative was killed in action on the 25th May 1915. The total number of Other Rank casualties for the month were 7 Killed and 22 wounded.

The Star ribbon is the wrong way but I wuoldn't be worried about that. I have purchased medals with original ribbons which had been stitched to the wrong medals on a mounting bar (evidently a very long time ago) The chap was killed in action and the fact that it was probably the boys mother or sister (he was 19) who stitched them on, I wasn't going to correct it. It all adds to the history of the medals in my opinion.

Neil

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Filbert70

I'm sure I read somewhere that the medals and ribbons were sent unattached but with no direction as to which ribbon belonged to which medal. As a result it was not uncommon for them to be hung the wrong way round.

As Neil says it all adds to the history of the medal.

Ian

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lukerwhite
I've just had a look through the KSLI Regiment History around the time he was killed but it very briefly skips over that time period with nothing worthy of note. (ie no major action took place at this time)

You relative was killed in action on the 25th May 1915. The total number of Other Rank casualties for the month were 7 Killed and 22 wounded.

The Star ribbon is the wrong way but I wuoldn't be worried about that. I have purchased medals with original ribbons which had been stitched to the wrong medals on a mounting bar (evidently a very long time ago) The chap was killed in action and the fact that it was probably the boys mother or sister (he was 19) who stitched them on, I wasn't going to correct it. It all adds to the history of the medals in my opinion.

Neil

I have never been able to pinpoint what actually happened to him. I have been told that it was probably shell fire. I know he was in the Armentiere area and his battaion were holding a line either side of the road that runs past Lille Post, they hold this line from 8th to 11th April, 17th-23rd April, 29th April to 30th May (very long tour of trenches due to heavy fighting at Ypres, the companies rotated). Does this match with the war diary you have accesst to? I would love any info you could send me on this Neil.

My email is lukerwhite@hotmail.co.uk

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NeilEvans

Luke,

Thanks for posting the photographs. It's always nice see a trio to a Shropshire man.

Neil

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nthornton1979

Luke,

Can't help you with the war diary I'm afraid. All I have is the Regiment history and it basically it tells us everything you already know. I would definitely be worth getting the war diary though. If no one on here has it then you could look at paying someone to get it from Kew. Prices are usually very reasonable.

Neil

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Patrick ODwyer
I'm sure I read somewhere that the medals and ribbons were sent unattached

They were sent unattached. You are right. Below is an example of how ribbons were sent. Only the Star ribbon has the potential for error in fitting. I think I have seen a few in the past also.

Luke,

Nagington is an unusual name. There was a Samuel Nagington in the 20th Hussars (before the Great War) - any relation?

Patrick

post-888-1271314148.jpg

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Myrtle

Luke

While researching the Herefordshire Regiment I have come across a mention of your relatives in the Hereford Times 12th June 1915. Pte Nagington 8123 and Pte Nagington 10071 were both listed as missing under a heading of 2nd Shropshires.

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Michael Johnson

One common error is to use the BWM ribbon on the Victory, probably because it was easier to threas through the ring, while the Victory ribbon was only slightly too large for the BWM.

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