Calling all experts on London Regt/East Surreys

[westkent78]

I am hoping that some Pal can explain the affiliation of the London Regiment battalions with line regiments which occurred in 1916, such as the 21st & 23rd London Bns with the East Surreys.

Did they actually become part of the parent corps? What was the motive behind such a move?

Were members still referred to as belonging to the London Regt or the East Surreys, in the way that soldiers still referred to being in the 50th or 97th rather than in 1st or 2nd Bn Royal West Kent after the 1881 Cardwell reforms?

Lots of questions!

Thanks for any help.

Matthew

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Matthew

This is from 'The Territorial Battalions - A Pictorial History' by Ray Westlake.

"In 1916, each battalion of the London regiment became part of a regular regiment, in most instances those that they had served under as volunteers prior to 1908. At this time the original designation of each unit was retained. In 1922 the remaining battalions were given the status of separate regiments and assumed designations e.g. 1st City of London Regiment (royal Fusiliers)."

Dave

[andyspiller]

Matthew

Quoting from Ray Westlake's 'The Territorial Battalions'

21st Bn

In 1908 the 1st Surreys transferred to the TF as the 21st (County of London) Bn. Both 2/21st and 2/21st Bns were also formed.

23rd Bn

"The Bn originated from two Surrey rifle volunteer corps, the 7th, raised at Southwark in 1859, and the 26th which was formed in Clapham in 1875. With a combined strength of nine companies, the two corps were amalgamated as the 7th Bn in 1880. This title was changed to 4th Volunteer Bn, East Surrey Regt in 1887 and to 23rd (County of London) Bn, The London Regt in 1908.

The 1/23rd Londons served on the Western Front during the First World War. It saw a great deal of action at Loos and High Wood and later in the Ypres sector. The 2/23rd landed at Harvre in June 1916 and after serving in France, moved to Salonika in November of the same year. Egypt in June 1917 and back to France in May 1918. The 3/23rd became part of the 21st (Reserve) Bn, London Regt in 1916."

Regards

Andy

[Charles Fair]

Matthew - Jock Bruce has explianed this from the numbering point of view here: http://www.1914-1918.net/TF/TF_renumbering_infantry.htm

The wider points you raise are good questions. I for one am trying to track down more about this. I have understood that it was mainly adminstrative - there was no need for the London TF bns to have seperate depots after the TF effectively became merged into the rest of the army with the 1916 Military Service Acts.

In terms of the 19th London Regt which was affiliated with the Middlesex, I have found in the 19th London and Middlesex Regt medal rolls:

1. many cases of 19th London men who were posted into the Middlesex, but who generally kept their 6 digit 19th London numbers

2. Middlesex men who were posted into the 19th generally kept their Middlesex numbers (usually G/XXXXX)

They dont appear to have become part of the parent corps. Two-thirds of the men who died with the 19th London Ragt in the 100 days were actually Middlesex badged - they are shown as SDGW and CWGC as "attached 1/19th London", and have Middlesex headstones. I have found a couple whose headstones say "Middlesex attached 19th London Regt".

The distinction between the two seems to have been very clear in 1918, with respective numbers being kept. However, it seems less clear in 1916, with some of the early transferees between the two taking on new numbers.

I am still trying to work out what went on and am some way from having the definitive article as it applies to the 19th.

Charles

[westkent78]

Thank you for clearing that up.

I can see I'm going to have to add researching the 23rd London to my long list of projects, to get to the specifics of those battalions!

It's addictive.

Matthew