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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Muerrisch's Guide to rank badges


Muerrisch

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I am going to do an illustrated guide to British rank and appointment badges of the Great War, illustrating the three main sets of changes during the war, to be available free via PM and email.

I have very little in the way of the badges in my collection.

Please, if you have a badge or badges on the following list, and are prepared to scan/ photograph them and let me incorporate them, pop up on this thread and I will contact you.

Chevrons 4 bar, 3 bar, 2 bar, 1 bar in normal chevron pattern material

Ditto above in x-hatch wartime material

Royal Arms in gilding metal and in worsted.

Ditto in wreath [conductor].

I can look after most or all of the appointments [8 point star, drum, bugle, trumpet, horseshoe etc etc, and RA gun RE grenade], best thing is to press on and find what is missing towards the end!

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David

I will go through my collection and send by direct email what I have, I have already identified RSM TI NF wearing gilding metal and a Lance Corporal Signaller KOYLI with X Hatch

regards

John

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Chevrons 4 bar, 3 bar, 2 bar, 1 bar in normal chevron pattern material

Any use? Both still attached to my jacket at the moment!

http://s2.postimage.org/rjKki-12dd600f603d...8a37b5d335c.jpg

rjKki.jpg

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Any use? Both still attached to my jacket at the moment!

http://s2.postimage.org/rjKki-12dd600f603d...8a37b5d335c.jpg

rjKki.jpg

Andrew - at the risk of hijacking David's thread, could you tell me more about this jacket? My GF finished the war as A/Cpl in 16/KRRC in 33rd Division - hence my interest!

PM me if you don't want to distract David's Topic.

Cheers,

Mark

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Andrew - at the risk of hijacking David's thread, could you tell me more about this jacket? My GF finished the war as A/Cpl in 16/KRRC in 33rd Division - hence my interest!

I do Great War living history as a hobby, the group I'm with normally portrays 33rd Div 33rd Battalion MGC. It's an original post-war SD jacket, the stripes are also original (albeit added by me for when I'm doing solo MG work as the No.1 gunner, they come off when I'm with the rest of the group, hence my earlier comment), the 33rd Div domino patches are modern reproductions made for the group, although there has been some argument as to how correct they are for war-time use. Either way, they are a constant source of minor amusement for being sewn on the wrong way (as they have a top and bottom, although not very clear!).

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Gentl;emen, thank you for the offers which I shall take up when the dust settles ..... Golden Wedding coming up tomorrow [poor Mrs Grumpy] so a bit involved.

Can I restate aim?

Best of all would be authentic items on original authentic jacket/ overcoat

Second, authentic items NOT on jacket

Third, good quality photos of items I am unlikely to source as artefacts .... in particular the x hatch chevrons.

Back to sorting out spare bedrooms .......

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"I do Great War living history as a hobby, the group I'm with normally portrays 33rd Div 33rd Battalion MGC. It's an original post-war SD jacket, the stripes are also original (albeit added by me for when I'm doing solo MG work as the No.1 gunner, they come off when I'm with the rest of the group, hence my earlier comment), the 33rd Div domino patches are modern reproductions made for the group, although there has been some argument as to how correct they are for war-time use. Either way, they are a constant source of minor amusement for being sewn on the wrong way (as they have a top and bottom, although not very clear!)."

Hi Andrew,

There is no argument. 33rd Btn MGC never wore a patch like that. The end!!

Graham Seaton-Hutchinson's extravagant history of 33rd Battalion MGC shows clearly that the Battalion wore no cloth patches - including MG qualification badges - in any of the many photographs of the Battalion.

What they did have was the brass "I", originally intended for use on the shoulder strap with the separate "MGC", on the collar points. If you want to represent 33rd Battalion, MGC that's what you need on your jackets.

I'm still amazed that a group like yours, which has such attention to detail on all the rest of the kit, continues to wear a completely fictitious patch!!

Cheers,

Taff

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4 Chevrons. Whether originally rank or GC I don't know. It looks pretty ropey for a rank badge but I bought it with a worsted crown (which I can't find) so who knows? The chevrons are backed on Great War serge.

.

post-1565-1269534731.jpg

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And 3 Chevrons. I have a pair of these on early serge.

I hope these are useful.

Cheers,

Taff

PS: Congratulations to you and Mrs Grump - have a great day!

post-1565-1269534948.jpg

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Etremely useful!

I may have to grovel for transfer by e-mail eventually if the quality [when lifted from the site] is not excellent.

There was no difference [supposed not to be] rank versus GC badge according to all my primary sources.

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There is no argument. 33rd Btn MGC never wore a patch like that. The end!!

Graham Seaton-Hutchinson's extravagant history of 33rd Battalion MGC shows clearly that the Battalion wore no cloth patches - including MG qualification badges - in any of the many photographs of the Battalion.

What they did have was the brass "I", originally intended for use on the shoulder strap with the separate "MGC", on the collar points. If you want to represent 33rd Battalion, MGC that's what you need on your jackets.

I'm still amazed that a group like yours, which has such attention to detail on all the rest of the kit, continues to wear a completely fictitious patch!!

You've mentioned that before Taff, hence my comment about "some argument" ;) Nearest thing I've seen is an original helmet with the "patch" painted on the side, which could of course have been done at any time, and no clear MGC connection at that. However, as I understand it the patches we used are supposed to have been based on an original in (I think) Jay Hendy's collection (could be wrong). He would be the one to ask. Either way, I remain neutral, and wear them as society uniform regs state they be worn with MGC kit.

PS, if you have a copy of the 33rd Bat. MGC history I would love to borrow it at some point - I have been looking for a copy for a long while, but cannot justify in a single book the several hundred pounds any half-way decent copy seems to fetch on Ebay!

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Congratulations to both Mr and Mrs Grump on their golden wedding celebrations.

:rolleyes:

Bruce

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So only 16 to feed.......might i suggest a chippy night?

:lol:

Bruce

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Interesting newly promoted Sergeant of 3rd Manchester Pals he has added a Lcpls stripe to his Cpls stripes.

will llook out some more tonight.

regards

John

post-27843-1269541211.jpg

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You've mentioned that before Taff, hence my comment about "some argument" ;) Nearest thing I've seen is an original helmet with the "patch" painted on the side, which could of course have been done at any time, and no clear MGC connection at that. However, as I understand it the patches we used are supposed to have been based on an original in (I think) Jay Hendy's collection (could be wrong). He would be the one to ask. Either way, I remain neutral, and wear them as society uniform regs state they be worn with MGC kit.

PS, if you have a copy of the 33rd Bat. MGC history I would love to borrow it at some point - I have been looking for a copy for a long while, but cannot justify in a single book the several hundred pounds any half-way decent copy seems to fetch on Ebay!

Hi Andrew,

I think it would be good if the society could find any photographs of the patch being worn at the time by the 33rd Battalion, MGC. Otherwise you are collectively guilty of misleading the public and creating another myth - and the Great War has enough of those to be going on with!

I'm sure that some of the collectors on the Forum would have popped up with the evidence by now in other threads if they were worn as a patch.

I have a red circular patch with "ATN" embroidered in gold. These were not worn by the 18th Division but I have seen them sewn to the brassards of Divisional Staff Officers.

Likewise, there are quite a few well known patches such as the 40th Division patch with the bantam cock and the acorns, and the 52nd Lowland Division patch with the letter "L" and the shield, which were worn after the end of hostilities.

Whichever War Office bod is responsible for the upkeep of your uniform regs really should redraft them. You wouldn't dream of inventing your own Gun Drills would you?! Remaining "neutral" just means that you are improperly dressed.

You are welcome to borrow the 33rd Battalion History as long as you look after it. As you say, they are pretty expensive to replace now. Remind me next time we are likely to meet up and I will bring it along.

Here are a few photographs from the book:

Men of 100 Company, MGC taken at Arras, March 1917. Captain Seaton-Hutchinson, A&SH, in command. Before the merger of the three Companies into 33rd Battalion, MGC there is no sign of any insignia on the jackets except rank and one Sergeant with an Instructors MG badge above his stripes.

Battalion Scouts. The green cuff bands are clearly visible and you should be able to make out the brass "I"s on the collar points. One of Seaton-Hutchinson's paintings near the end of the History shows a Scout Sergeant with the brass Scout badge above his chevrons.

Finally, a close-up detail of a group photograph of all the men in the Battalion who were entitled to the Mons Star, taken 4th August, 1918. The brass "I"s are clearly seen on most of the mens collars. Plenty of GC chevrons, overseas service chevrons and ranks but no MG qualification badges at all. This is common among all the photographs in the book.

Other photos show many of the Officers wearing 'wind up' jackets in the front line (although usually with MGC collar badges) and many officers have an MGC cap badge sweated to their Brodies.

Cheers,

Taff

.

post-1565-1269737045.jpg

post-1565-1269737055.jpg

post-1565-1269737064.jpg

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Here is the large Crown I mentioned earlier along with a photo of a similar one being worn by an ancient warrior of the 6th (Cyclist) Battalion, Suffolk Regiment.

.

post-1565-1269738509.jpg

post-1565-1269738517.jpg

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"I do Great War living history as a hobby, the group I'm with normally portrays 33rd Div 33rd Battalion MGC. It's an original post-war SD jacket, the stripes are also original (albeit added by me for when I'm doing solo MG work as the No.1 gunner, they come off when I'm with the rest of the group, hence my earlier comment), the 33rd Div domino patches are modern reproductions made for the group, although there has been some argument as to how correct they are for war-time use. Either way, they are a constant source of minor amusement for being sewn on the wrong way (as they have a top and bottom, although not very clear!)."

Hi Andrew,

There is no argument. 33rd Btn MGC never wore a patch like that. The end!!

Graham Seaton-Hutchinson's extravagant history of 33rd Battalion MGC shows clearly that the Battalion wore no cloth patches - including MG qualification badges - in any of the many photographs of the Battalion.

What they did have was the brass "I", originally intended for use on the shoulder strap with the separate "MGC", on the collar points. If you want to represent 33rd Battalion, MGC that's what you need on your jackets.

I'm still amazed that a group like yours, which has such attention to detail on all the rest of the kit, continues to wear a completely fictitious patch!!

Cheers,

Taff

Spot on Taff, it's good to know that the chums do it correctly, keep up the good work. Hope to see you at an event in the future. JG

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