Film 'Gallipoli'

[Hyacinth1326]

I have no views or agenda whatsoever beyond passing curiosity in some aspects of Australian national self image and its impact upon cultural constructs.  The wide variation in that British born statistic is most illuminating. Interestingly nobody has made reference to the characterisations in Weir’s other film, Picnic at Hanging Rock, in relation to portrayals of the British.

Edited 24 May , 2019 by Hyacinth1326

[b3rn]

I don't think the variation in the British-born statistic is noteworthy. Proper historians have indicated 18-20 percent. My rudimentary analysis allowed up to 23%. Fairly consistent. The question is: so what? Facts and stories are two different things. Personally, I avoid fiction, but then, I may be culturally immature!

 

I am keen to see this video piece. I think it touches on some of the themes evident (to me) in this thread: 

http://honesthistory.net.au/wp/stephens-david-koken-erguns-sehitler-heroes-is-a-well-observed-dardanelles-doco-that-deserves-wide-distribution/

[Hyacinth1326]

Ah you are treating me harshly.  On my bookshelf there are several volumes by noted Australian historian, John Laffin.  You could say that Mr Laffin’s books cultivated my interest in the key percentage. Facts and stories indeed.

Edited 24 May , 2019 by Hyacinth1326

[b3rn]

My geography teacher was a Laffin, and I'm sure a sibling or close relation, but too long ago. I think John Laffin's books are of their time. That's not to say we don't still enjoy a bit of pommy bashing. Although there's not much call for outside help at the moment. Mea culpa, Hyacinth1326, mea maxima culpa!

[Hyacinth1326]

'Mea culpa'
 - sic loquitur pro se

[MKC]

Out of curiosity, using the NAA's B2455 WW1 personnel dossiers as the source, I took a name and did a count of born in the UK based on the POB entry in the file title. The name could occur anywhere in the file title, so not just surnames. 

 

The names I chose, and the counts, were as follows:

Gibson: total NAA files: 638. Total UK POBs = 115, so 115/638 = 18.2%

 McAlister: total NAA files: 61. Total UK POBs = 4, so 4/61 = 6.5%

McDonald: total NAA files: 1,505, but I only counted to the first 600. Total UK POBs 68, so 68/600 = 11.3%

Bignell: total NAA files: 50, Total UK POBs = 4, so 4/50 = 8%

Smith, total of 6,060 files, but I only counted the first 600, 147/600 = 24.5%

 

Overall, that's 334/1949 = 17.13%

 

OK, so it is not a big sample, and shows a wide variation between surnames, but the overall percentage does appear to be in the same cricket field as the figures given by Stanley et al.

 

Steve: your 40,000 names: is this organised in such a way that you can extract a more exact count of place of birth? It's a big sample. 

 

Mike

Edited 24 May , 2019 by MKC

[Guest]

Mike 

 

No sorry it was not something I was looking at when I started it. 

 

It was only later I tried to go back through them to see what was around.

 

While a small percentage show a NOK in the UK and many other Aussies were born in the UK.

 

But not in the Great numbers we are talking about, but there grand parents maybe British, so they still claim to be British while being Aussies.

 

I put these to be around 30% but maybe lower, as its hard to be sure with many men, as many men lie on there forms?

 

Many also put there relations or friends on these forms, and not there parents, some don't have them or know them to record?

 

I don't think you could ever be 100% sure of these when working on numbers as there so many veritables.

 

S.B

[phil andrade]

22 hours ago, b3rn said:

I don't think the variation in the British-born statistic is noteworthy. Proper historians have indicated 18-20 percent. My rudimentary analysis allowed up to 23%. Fairly consistent. The question is: so what? Facts and stories are two different things. Personally, I avoid fiction, but then, I may be culturally immature!

 

I am keen to see this video piece. I think it touches on some of the themes evident (to me) in this thread: 

http://honesthistory.net.au/wp/stephens-david-koken-erguns-sehitler-heroes-is-a-well-observed-dardanelles-doco-that-deserves-wide-distribution/

 

That’s quite a disturbing indication of how the themes of mutual admiration have given way to a hostile approach from Turkish people : I allude to the comments that were cited in that link you posted.

 

Mind you, there was always a suspicion in my mind that the lovely sentiments that Atatürk expressed in that “ your sons are now our sons” eulogy was a case of protesting too much.

 

In Peter Weir’s film the depiction of the way the Anzacs viewed the Turks is interesting : if memory serves me, there was banter between them that suggested a form of peculiar camaraderie ....” keep your head down, Abdul ! “ shouts an Aussie as he throws a jam tin bomb into the enemy trench, followed by bellows of pain from the victim.  A Turk lifts a large range target from his trench, and indicates with his bayonet how he thinks the Aussies rate as snipers, and shouts out “ Good shot , Australia ! “.  The thing is surreal, and it works. They're killing each other with relish, but the humour is to the fore.  The horrors are evident : the decomposing hand that projects from the side of the trench and is shaken in a macabre ritual by Aussies who pass it.....all too true, I believe , but Weir is determined to play the gallows humour theme to the full.

 

Russell Crowe’s Water Diviner gives a more cosmopolitan and unremittingly somber view : the Turkish experience is much more developed and is depicted with an intention to invite sympathy for the plight of the Turks, not only in the campaign, but in the toxic aftermath of the Great War.

 

What, I wonder, does the future hold in store when it comes to Gallipoli and the film medium ?

 

Phil

[Scalyback]

Anyone watched the Gallipoli mini series on Amazon prime?

2015 but first time I've seen it. Seven episodes with the first being double length. 

[phil andrade]

Thanks for the heads up.  Just watching it now.  It looks good ; the opening scenes are harrowing in the Saving Private Ryan tradition.

Only quibble is that the actor playing Hamilton has an accent that didn’t divest itself of the antipodean twang : more Bryan Brown than Hugh Bonneville.

 

My Sunday afternoon is now settled.

 

This works for me !

 

Phil

 

 

 

[KGB]

Gallipoli mini series? Yes. My Grandfather omitted mention of cute nurses skinny dipping. 

[593jones]

I'm sure he was a perfect gentleman and looked the other way!

[b3rn]

Probably of little interest to most but my request for API access to the service records was refused. Can’t have any old riff raff accessing information paid for by the public!

 

Unfortunately, at this time your application on 23 May 2019 has been refused for the following reasons:

*    You have applied with a private email account
*    You do not meet the 'cultural institution' criteria

[Guest]

Mate,

 

I was just looking at the 10R (reinforcement) to the ICC (Camel Corps) from A to L names.

 

The number I looked at were 73 men, of whom only 1 man shows an NOK in the UK and that was Ireland.

 

There were 3 men with NOK's in Sweden, 2 from NZ and 1 from Canada.

 

There remainder are all Aussies and from all over the Country, the reinforcement was in two parts (from NSW and WA)

 

Now how many of these were British born I could not confirm, but very few?

 

S.B

[phil andrade]

On 26/05/2019 at 15:41, KGB said:

Gallipoli mini series? Yes. My Grandfather omitted mention of cute nurses skinny dipping. 

 

 

Damn my eyes !  I missed that bit.

 

Please refer me to the episode and time of the shot.

 

There was a lot of gore and and visceral ( literally ) horror in the depiction of the fighting : rather more than a few vignettes of putrefying corpses and the like.....a few scenes of cute nurses skinny dipping would have afforded me some relief.

 

Phil

[augmauns]

Hi

 

Re composition of the AIF who went overseas, the Trove article below gives 77% native born with UK born 19%.  I would suggest if we included "at least one parent born in the UK" then that 19% figure would be much higher.

 

From my observations in diaries etc I have formed the view that the Australians considered themselves Australians first and British second, probably a similar view of a significant proportion of Scots who considered themselves Scottish first and British second.

 

 

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38876832?searchTerm=native-born&searchLimits=l-state=Western+Australia|||l-title=101|||l-decade=192|||l-year=1929

 

Greg

[b3rn]

Nice find, Greg.

 

Here's the article identifier: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38876832

[MKC]

Well done, Augmauns & b3rn - a fascinating article with some very interesting figures.  Thank you very much for sharing that link. 

 

Looking at the various sources, we get the following:

 

Total enlistments: 416,809 (Scott, Official History Vol XI)

Total embarked: 333,728 (Bou & Dennis, Centenary History p60/61) Based on 416,809 - 83,084 who were not embarked for O/s service for any of several reasons)

Newspaper article above: 331,781 embarked for o/s service

Total embarked for overseas and in training in Australia as at 11 Nov 1918: 331,814 (Bean, Official History, Vol VI p1098)

AWM embarkation rolls: 338,618 (many 'repeats' of individuals in these rolls, who embarked more than once, incorrect & duplicated entries, etc, so an inflated figure)

AWM Nominal Roll: 322,829 of those overseas (lists only a single embarkation for each person, no duplication)

 

Which leads me to conclude that we'll never be able to determine exactly how many embarked for overseas service with the AIF and AN&MEF from surviving records!!

 

The figures from the newspaper article provide the following percentages (rounded to 2 decimals):

Aust born: 77.75%

Brit born: 19.36%)

NZ born: 1.27%  )  Total non-Aust born: 22.25%

Other Brit: 0.68%)

Foreign: 0.94%   )

 

Mike

 

 

[KGB]

On 30/05/2019 at 22:09, phil andrade said:

It was Deadline Gallipoli, mea cupla. 

 

Damn my eyes !  I missed that bit.

 

Please refer me to the episode and time of the shot.

 

There was a lot of gore and and visceral ( literally ) horror in the depiction of the fighting : rather more than a few vignettes of putrefying corpses and the like.....a few scenes of cute nurses skinny dipping would have afforded me some relief.

 

Phil