Frank Nagington KSLI

[lukerwhite]

Luke: I suggest you sit down and read this thread through a bit more slowly and carefully as you seem to be rushing at this like a bull in a china shop!

Post '5 regarding casualties on 25th May 1915: CWGC record 6 deaths, but Phillips is the only one buried, which suggests he Died of Wounds sustained earlier.

001 BIGGS T 5320 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

002 GRIGGS JW 8792 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

003 NAGINGTON F 8123 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

004 PHILLIPS JCO 10331 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

005 THOMAS WE 7585 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

006 WILLIAMS G 6333 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

Whilst the newspaper clipping with the photos of both Frank and Henry may be confusing at first glance, it clearly states:

Frank is the YOUNGER brother of Geo Nagington.

Henry is the ELDEST son of George Nagington and they are NEPHEWS.

Therefore Geo must be a brother of George and unlikely to have the same forename, suggesting Geo stands for Geoffrey.

Hope that fits with any family tree!

Kevin, this seems to have caused much confusion! Here is a screen shot of my tree. George is his eldest brother as seen;

[lukerwhite]

I have Franks (baptised Francis E Nagington) MIC and his nephews Henry's (baptised Henry George) MIC.

I am keen to know what Frank may have experienced. I know where he died (in Armentieres) but do not have much information about the battle or any skirmishes he was in up until that point. I have no idea about his time in India.

I was also wondering if Henry was transferrred to the MGC because of his death? (see his post for this)

[NeilEvans]

Hi Luke,

Still nothing to report. Although i'm inching nearer to May 1915.

Neil

[lukerwhite]

Hi Luke,

Still nothing to report. Although i'm inching nearer to May 1915.

Neil

Thanks Neil, glad you haven't forgotten about me.

[lukerwhite]

Luke: I suggest you sit down and read this thread through a bit more slowly and carefully as you seem to be rushing at this like a bull in a china shop!

Post '5 regarding casualties on 25th May 1915: CWGC record 6 deaths, but Phillips is the only one buried, which suggests he Died of Wounds sustained earlier.

001 BIGGS T 5320 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

002 GRIGGS JW 8792 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

003 NAGINGTON F 8123 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

004 PHILLIPS JCO 10331 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

005 THOMAS WE 7585 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

006 WILLIAMS G 6333 1ST BN 25/05/1915 KING'S SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

Whilst the newspaper clipping with the photos of both Frank and Henry may be confusing at first glance, it clearly states:

Frank is the YOUNGER brother of Geo Nagington.

Henry is the ELDEST son of George Nagington and they are NEPHEWS.

Therefore Geo must be a brother of George and unlikely to have the same forename, suggesting Geo stands for Geoffrey.

Hope that fits with any family tree!

Hi Kevin,

Missed some of the detail in this post last time around. You were right, i was rushing a bit, but the info coming in was great!

Since then I have had time to soak it all in a bit more and have even bought Frank Nagingtons Medals! I have also been given a MIA list dated 12 Jun 1915 from the Hereford Times which lists Frank and his nephew George Henry (listed as Private H Nagington previously). It also lists some others which were also killed on the 25 May 1915 (3 weeks earlier). The odd thing is it lists them as in the 2nd Battalion! I contatcted Annette and she stated the following which ties in with your list of casualties on the 25 May 1915-

"I ran the names of those killed and died of wounds plus a few of the missing through my database. Firstly there are some mistakes with the lists, some of the regimental numbers are incorrect (likely to be typos by the paper) but also one of the men recorded as died of wounds did not die, also a couple of the killed were not killed. Some of those in the missing list were not 2nd Batt (according to their medal rolls) and as you point out some of the missing later turned up. The interesting thing is that out of the six men listed by C.W.G.C & SD as killed over 25th & 26th May with the 1st Batt, five are among those listed under 2nd Batt in the cuttings.They are 5320 Biggs listed as wounded, 6333 Williams listed as killed, 10331 (recorded as 10031) Phillips listed killed, 5046 Thompson listed killed + Frank. The sixth man 7585 Thomas is not listed (as far as I can see) so he must have been the one actualy killed with the 1st Batt. as recorded in it's diary.It looks very likely that Biggs, Williams, Phillips Thompson & Frank Nagington were all killed with the 2nd Batt. on 25th May 1915. Also looks very likely that Henry George Nagington also moved from the 1st Batt. to the 2nd. '

There is no mention of a GRIGGS 8792 in Annettes findings??? She has a THOMPSON 5046 which you dont have on your list??

Can you shed in light?

Also how did you know PHILLIPS 10331 was the only one buried?

[lukerwhite]

I have looked up GRIGGS JW 8792 on CWGC and he died 25 may 1915 - he is listing as missing on the Hereford Times so he too transferred to the 2nd Batt.

25 May 1915 (all of these are listed on CWGC as 1st battalion)

1. pvt GRIGGS JW 8792 - he is listing as missing in the Hereford Times so he too transferred to the 2nd Batt.
2. sgt BIGGS T 5320 - listed as wounded in Hereford times so transferred to the 2nd Batt (must have died of his wounds)
3. pvt NAGINGTON F 8123 - he is listing as missing in the Hereford Times so he too transferred to the 2nd Batt.
4. lance corp PHILLIPS JCO 10331 - killed in action in the Hereford Times so he too transferred to the 2nd Batt.
5. lance corp WILLIAMS G 6333 - killed in action in the Hereford Times so he too transferred to the 2nd Batt.
6. pvt THOMAS WE 7585 - killed in action in the Hereford Times so he too transferred to the 2nd Batt.

26 May 1915 (listed as 1st Battalion CWGC)

1. sgt THOMPSON 5046

I have looked into all these soldiers now and they are all listed as 1st batt on the CWGC and under the 2nd Batt in the Hereford Times. So it looks as though they were all transfered to the 2nd shortly before their death.

It leaves the one qustion of who the soldier was who was listed as being killed in the 1st Battlion in the war diary you had. They all seem to have been killed with the 2nd on the 25th May 1915 except for THOMPSON who was killed on the 26 May 1915. Is he the one that was actually with the 1st when he died?? What does the enty in the war diary for the 1st actually say?

Does anyone have any of maps that cover the railway wood area, where Frank would have been if with the 2nd batt like we now believe.

Kind Regards,

Luke

How they are listed on CWGC;

Name:GRIGGS, JOHN WILLIAMInitials:J WNationality:United KingdomRank:PrivateRegiment/Service:King's Shropshire Light InfantryUnit Text:1st Bn.Date of Death:25/05/1915Service No:8792Additional information:Son of Mr. and Mrs. Ellen Griggs.Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 8. PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

Name:BIGGS, THOMASInitials:TNationality:United KingdomRank:SerjeantRegiment/Service:King's Shropshire Light InfantryUnit Text:1st Bn.Date of Death:25/05/1915Service No:5320Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 8.Memorial:PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

Name:NAGINGTON, FRANKInitials:FNationality:United KingdomRank:PrivateRegiment/Service:King's Shropshire Light InfantryUnit Text:1st Bn.Date of Death:25/05/1915Service No:8123Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 8.Memorial:PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

Name:PHILLIPSInitials:J C ONationality:United KingdomRank:Lance CorporalRegiment/Service:King's Shropshire Light InfantryUnit Text:1st Bn.Age:20Date of Death:25/05/1915Service No:10331Additional information:Son of John Charles and Elizabeth Phillips, of IIIA, Thorparch Rd., Wandsworth Rd., Lambeth, London.Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:VII. A. 7.Cemetery:KLEIN-VIERSTRAAT BRITISH CEMETERY

Name:WILLIAMS, GEORGEInitials:GNationality:United KingdomRank:PrivateRegiment/Service:King's Shropshire Light InfantryUnit Text:1st Bn.Date of Death:25/05/1915Service No:6333Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 8.Memorial:PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

Name:THOMAS, WILLIAM ERNESTInitials:W ENationality:United KingdomRank:PrivateRegiment/Service:King's Shropshire Light InfantryUnit Text:1st Bn.Date of Death:25/05/1915Service No:7585Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 8.Memorial:PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

Name:THOMPSON, ALOYSIUS MOULTRIE (BOB)Initials:A MNationality:United KingdomRank:SerjeantRegiment/Service:King's Shropshire Light InfantryUnit Text:1st Bn.Age:37Date of Death:26/05/1915Service No:5046Additional information:Son of the late Robert and Elizabeth Thompson, of Wolverhampton.Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Panel 8.Memorial:PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

[archangel9]

Luke,

You mentioned a Times Casualty List in November 1914. I have just come across your man -

Nagington, 8123, F., Shrops. L.I.

listed as wounded in the Times casualty list published 22nd December 1914.

If you don't already have the list PM me your email address.

John

[lukerwhite]

Luke,

You mentioned a Times Casualty List in November 1914. I have just come across your man -

Nagington, 8123, F., Shrops. L.I.

listed as wounded in the Times casualty list published 22nd December 1914.

If you don't already have the list PM me your email address.

John

Hi John,

I dont have this. Would be over the moon if you could send me a copy to my email address. Have sent you a personal message containing my address.

Kind regards

Luke

[archangel9]

Luke,

email sent

Happy to help.

John

[lukerwhite]

Luke,

email sent

Happy to help.

John

Cheers John

[KevinBattle]

Luke, just back from holiday but it seems you have answered your own questions in the meantime:

There is no mention of a GRIGGS 8792 in Annettes findings??? She has a THOMPSON 5046 which you dont have on your list??

Can you shed in light?

Also how did you know PHILLIPS 10331 was the only one buried?

Phillips is the only one not on the Ploegsteert Memorial, as he is buried in the Klein Veirstraat Cemetery.

Serjeant Thompsons date of death is shown as 26th and if he had died of wounds incurred 25th, I would have expected him to have been buried near a CCS.

I think he died in a different action to that of those who died on 25th.

If I find any further info, I'll let you know.

[6th Shropshires]

Hi

Just to let you all know I am 99% sure that all K.S.L.I. listed as killed on the 25th and 26th May 1915 were killed with the 2nd Batt. K.S.L.I. trying to retake the trenches lost on the 24th May 1915, none were killed with the 1st Batt. I believed the men listed under the 1st Batt. had been sent to the 2nd Batt. from Base Camp, either returning from wounds or illness, they were still on the 1st Batt.'s books so to speak, and were thus recorded killed under the 1st Batt. when in fact they had been killed fighting with the 2nd Batt. I believe 73 other ranks were killed in the battle (there are recorded under 21st & 23rd but I think they to were killed over 25th/26th ?), only two have known graves.

It's no surprize that most have no grave as the 2nd Batt. got into German second line but had to retire at dawn as both their flanks were in the air and the Germans were seen massing for counter attack, the dead were left behind and I guess the Germans just through them in shell holes.

Annette

[lukerwhite]

From LLT

1st Battalion

August 1914 : at Tipperary. Part of 16th Brigade in 6th Division.

10 September 1914 : landed at St Nazaire.

6th Division

This peacetime Division of the pre-war army was quartered in Ireland and England at the outbreak of war, and was ordered on mobilisation to concentrate near Cambridge. By early September it was fully equipped and trained. On the 10 September 1914 it landed at St Nazaire and proceeded to the Western Front, where it remained throughout the war. The Division arrived in time to reinforce the hard-pressed BEF on the Aisne, before the whole army was moved north into Flanders:

1914

The actions on the Aisne heights

1915

The action at Hooge

[Myrtle]

Just to let you all know I am 99% sure that all K.S.L.I. listed as killed on the 25th and 26th May 1915 were killed with the 2nd Batt.

Annette

Hi Annette

Just out of interest, have you come to a 99% decision using information from the 1st and 2nd Battalion war diaries?

[wesleycrabb]

Hello Luke,

Found this in 'The Newport & market Drayton Advertiser', dated 10 July 1915, thought it might interest you.

Toodleoo

Wes.

[lukerwhite]

Hello Luke,

Found this in 'The Newport & market Drayton Advertiser', dated 10 July 1915, thought it might interest you.

Toodleoo

Wes.

Fantastic Wes,

Cant read though! Could you send to my email address. Will send my address to you privately.

Many thanks!

Luke

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Myrtle

Just out of interest, have you come to a 99% decision using information from the 1st and 2nd Battalion war diaries?

Yes in part, also gut instinct after 20 years researching the K.S.L.I. (having come across meny mistakes in C.W.G.C., SD and other Army records) but it as to be the cuttings from the Hereford paper that Luke sent me that convinced me. Before that I was 50-50 about the 6 chaps listed under 1st K.S.L.I. killed over 25th -26th May 1915, as the 1st diary makes no mention of anyone being killed over the 25th-26th. My first thoughts years ago when I first noticed this was that a typo with date had been made but the paper cutting listing all 6 as 2nd Battalion plus that combined with simular mistakes that I can prove made me 99% sure in this case. I can't be 100% because I do not have the service papers ect of any of the 6 in question, and I may be totaly wrong.

Annette

[Myrtle]

Hi Annette

Thanks for explaining. I posted the original Herefordshire Times cuttings for Luke's information and am therefore interested to find out how accurate this particular newspaper would have been at the time, as I am using it partly for my research into the Herefords. It seems to make sense that the men who were killed over the 25th/26th would have been with the 2nd Battalion KSLI as they were the ones in action over those dates.

Anyway I am coming across information in the newspaper that doesn't appear in the Herefordshire regimental diary but seems to be verified (lots of double and triple checking) from letters sent home by various soldiers.

Myrtle

[lukerwhite]

Hi Annette

Thanks for explaining. I posted the original Herefordshire Times cuttings for Luke's information and am therefore interested to find out how accurate this particular newspaper would have been at the time, as I am using it partly for my research into the Herefords. It seems to make sense that the men who were killed over the 25th/26th would have been with the 2nd Battalion KSLI as they were the ones in action over those dates.

Anyway I am coming across information in the newspaper that doesn't appear in the Herefordshire regimental diary but seems to be verified (lots of double and triple checking) from letters sent home by various soldiers.

Myrtle

Annette,

As you can see in the post threads that Wes has got yet another newspaper cutting for Frank Nagington! This time it is from the micro-miche at Market Drayton library and is of 'The Newport & market Drayton Advertiser' dated 10 July 1915. I cant read it unfortunately but Wes has transcribed to me that Frank Nagington is listed as missing under the heading of the 2nd Battalion again. Shame we can't see the others on that list at the moment but will try to get a copy from the library by post if this service is available. Alternatively Wes kindly said he would try to get a better copy next time he is down there so which ever happens first!

Just a bit more evidence in favour of the 2nd Battalion! Every little helps!

[6th Shropshires]

That makes it 99.1 % sure Myrtle is the Herefordshire Times held at Hereford library and does it mention the Shropshires much.

Annette

[Myrtle]

Annette

Yes it's at the Hereford Library and yes it contains quite a bit of KSLI information. As you know many Herefordshire born men joined the KSLI because of the close connections between the two regiments.

One example of what the paper contains below.

[NeilEvans]

Myrtle,

I have quite a few Hereford's in the Shropshire papers. You probably have them all, but, when i've fully indexed the paper would you like them?

Neil

[Myrtle]

Luke

Below is your Pte. W.E. Thomas who was kia on 25th May (although the paper reads 28th). It again reports that he was with the 2nd KSLI.

Hereford Times June 1915

Neil

I don't have the Shrophire newspaper reports on Herefordshire Regiment men so am interested in what you find. We could do a swap.

[NeilEvans]

Neil

I don't have the Shrophire newspaper reports on Herefordshire Regiment men so am interested in what you find. We could do a swap.

Sounds a good idea. I'll PM you nearer the time i finish the paper.

Neil

[6th Shropshires]

Thats great Myrtle, looks more and more like Pte. W.E. Thomas is on the wrong memorial. Also Henry Lea did not make it home, he was killed on 19th April 1917.

Annette