stiletto_33853 Posted 18 May , 2004 Share Posted 18 May , 2004 Not sure quite where to put this, I am looking for information on Prison Hulks more specifically prison ships moored off Southend On Sea, Essex during WW1. Reason of Interest is on night of May 10/11th 1915 Zeppelin LZ38 bombed Southend, his first bomb landed at 0245hours where this Zeppelin, commanded by Hauptmann Erich Lanz dropped an incendiary bomb that fell near the moored prison hulk S.S.Royal Edward. He then commenced to drop numerous bombs on the town which i have been able to research. Any knowledge of this or other prison ships would be greatly received. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 19 May , 2004 Share Posted 19 May , 2004 I'm sure you know that the Royal Edward was only used for a short time, in this role of housing Prisoners of War and 'aliens' also. There is a small mention of the Cunard ships: Saxonia, Ivernia and Royal Edward being used as Prison Ships at http://www.southendmuseums.co.uk/history/s...soshistory3.htm The Royal Edward resumed service as a requisitioned tranpsort ship. She sailed from Avonmouth, commanded by Commander P. M. Watton R.N.R., on the 28th July 1915, with a crew of 220, 31 officers and 1335 men, bound for Gallipoli. The Royal Edward was sailing without an escort to Mudros. She was sighted by German submarine UB14, commanded by Lieutenant Commander Heino von Heimbury on the 13/14 August. The UB14 fired a torpedo which hit the Royal Edward's stern. The Royal Edward sank within six minutes. Of the 1586 on board, less than 500 were rescued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 19 May , 2004 Share Posted 19 May , 2004 If you are looking for more information on the actual bombing of Southend, I might be able to help you further. For example, there are a few pitiful photos of wounded children, in the IWM, injured in the Southend raid. A list of Southend streets which were bombed, is listed in the book The Baby Killers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 19 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2004 RT, Thank you very much for that information, any pictures or references to the bombing of Southend would be great. There are a few pictures in "I was there" and references in "Zeppelin A Battle for Air Suprmacy in World War 1." A lot of the bombing by Zeppelins and later on Gothas seems to be centred around the town centre and the railway lines, Victoria Avenue, Baxter Avenue, Harcourt Avenue, North Road and West Road area. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 23 May , 2004 Share Posted 23 May , 2004 Andy, Have a look at: http://www.geh.org/fm/st08/htmlsrc/m197601470149_ful.html http://www.itwasnews.co.uk/descriptions/5/...-10-12188.shtml I am researching the "Royal Edward" which was a Canadian Northern Line ship. Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 23 May , 2004 Share Posted 23 May , 2004 Streets bombed in Southend that night include: Ashburnham Road York Road East Ambleside Drive Victoria Avenue Richmond Avenue Baxter Avenue Toledo Road Royal Terrace Prittlewell Square Essex Street Scratton Road St Vincent's Road St John's Road Coleman Street Clifton Mews Grange Gardens Princes Street Rear of London Road Rear of Cambridge Road Tudor Road Westborough School Playground West Road Rear of Harcourt Avenue Flaxman's timber yard (Southchurch Road) was burnt out. Have a look at the Southend Standard newspaper, just after the raid. The editor broke all the rules and reported, in full, the damage caused - and named casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2004 Kath, Many thanks for the links, interesting. The tie in with this ship and Southend does not seem to end. A couple of local people were killed on her when she was sunk and there were also a couple who survived her sinking only too become casualties later on in the war. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2004 RT, Many thanks for that, yes the local paper publishd a whole article on this. unfortunately the microfilm held in Southend Library is not in the best of condition so some of it is hard to fathom out. Thanks again. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 25 May , 2004 Share Posted 25 May , 2004 Other useful records to look at, if they survive, are the local police and fire brigade papers. See the thread by a relative (JemimaJane) of someone killed in a London airship raid http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...4591&hl=conduit You might also look for compensation claims, against the government, for bomb damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 25 May , 2004 Share Posted 25 May , 2004 Andy, Thought I'd look in C.W.G.C. cemetery records for Southend on Sea. Only WW2 civilian casualties found. Is this usual? Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 26 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2004 RT, Thanks for that bit of information, will see if they have the police and fire brigade records in the Essex record centre on my next visit. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 26 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2004 Kath, There are numerous WW1 graves in Southend what with three WW1 hospitals here at that time and many locals who died in hospitals at home or of illness. I have the CWGC lists on Excel if they of use to you, or if you have something specific let me know and i will see what i have in my files. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 26 May , 2004 Share Posted 26 May , 2004 Andy, Thought I'd look in C.W.G.C. cemetery records for Southend on Sea. Only WW2 civilian casualties found. Is this usual? Kath. Kath Sadly it was not part of the CWGC charter, to record civilian deaths by enemy action, in WW1. Because of the reporting embargo at the time, this often means that the name of a casualty was never published at the time. WW2 civilian casualties of war are, as you have found, recorded. If you wish to find civilian casualties, you often have to be creative. For example, I found some Zeppelin casualties (from a raid on London) by looking at the newspapers exactly 10 years (25 years and 50 years etc) after the event. A reporter will often write a small article saying "10 years ago, the German airship.... etc." Then I look in the letters page for the following couple of weeks, as the readers write in with their memories. More and more casualty names are being discovered, also, thanks to Genealogy groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 26 May , 2004 Share Posted 26 May , 2004 If you wish to find civilian casualties, you often have to be creative. For example, I found some Zeppelin casualties (from a raid on London) by looking at the newspapers exactly 10 years (25 years and 50 years etc) after the event. A reporter will often write a small article saying "10 years ago, the German airship.... etc." Then I look in the letters page for the following couple of weeks, as the readers write in with their memories. What a good idea! You can also look at the local authority's burial records. The present Local Authority Cemetery Department should have these. In my case, when I was looking for civilian victims of a 1916 Zeppelin raid, the clerk at the time had conveniently bracketed the names together in pencil and added the comment "Zeppelin". Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 26 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2004 RT & Tom, Great hints as to finding these, thanks. Kath, There is also a book titled "The Southend & District Roll of Honour" by Jeffrey Jervis, limited to 100 copies. It does list civilian casualties for Zeppelin/Gotha raids in the area and what cemeteries they are buried in, also a few who died in Air raids on London. I do have a copy of this so if it is of any use let me know and i will gladly look them up. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 26 May , 2004 Share Posted 26 May , 2004 Andy, A bit off topic, but I'm wondering if any German aliens or POWs died while on the internment ships. Can't find any Logs of the ships for that time. I've just sent for "The Zeppelin Fighters" : Arch WHITEHOUSE. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 28 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2004 Kath, Cant find any records to that effect, two local men were on her crew and died when the ship was sunk and another two local men in the Army died on her also when she was sunk. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 28 May , 2004 Share Posted 28 May , 2004 Andy, Have been through Tower Hill list, but can't see Southend crew members. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 28 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2004 Kath, Looking for the other one for you, the one to hand is: DOWNING, Harry W, Pantryman Harry Downing had lived in Southend all his life, and was the son of Mr. Downing, a well known painter and decorator. A year before his death he moved to 63, Ashley Down Road, Horfield, Bristol, having prviously lived at 39, Farringdon Place, Southend On Sea. He had for some years worked as a steward, and joined the HMT Royal Edward as Chief Pantryman. He was killed in action at the Dardanelles on 14th August 1915, aged 38, leaving a widow and four children. He was for many years a gunner in the 1st Essex R.G.A. Volunteers( Southend Company ). Southend Standard 23-9-15 for obit & photo. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 28 May , 2004 Share Posted 28 May , 2004 Andy, Thanks. In the crew list for the penultimate voyage in June, H.W.Downing has STEEPLE, Essex as his birthplace. (A district of Southend?) Age is 35, address 419, Gloster Rd. Horfield, Bristol. His previous ship was the Tortuguero. when a shipmate was J.N.Edwardes, also of Gloster Rd. He was killed, presumed drowned, when the Royal Edward was torpedoed 13th.August, 1915. I'll ask Toby Evans for copy of obits. Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 28 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2004 Kath, In your details of this ship are you able to tell me the dates the Royal Edward was moored of Southend and how many people she had aboard her/composition. Steeple is not a part of Southend but is a village in Essex. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 28 May , 2004 Share Posted 28 May , 2004 Andy, Southend Librarian sent me "The Southend & Westcliff GRAPHIC for 20th.Nov.1914 which has pics. of German aliens arriving at Southend on Wed. the 18th. It says the ships had been lying off Southend for some days. The Royal Edward had accommodation for 344-1st, 210-2nd and 560-3rd class passengers. Crew numbers would vary, around 220. In March 1915, questions were asked in Parliament about the expense of hiring the ships for internment. It was stated that this would end by the middle of April, but as you said, the ships were still at Southend in May. The prisoners could pay for 1st, 2nd, 3rd class cabins. " When Mr. John B. Jackson, of the American Embassy in Berlin, visited this country to report on the treatment of German prisoners of war in England, he inspected the Royal Edward, which was then being used as an internment vessel. In his report he stated as follows:- Of the ships, the Royal Edward was obviously the show ship. On board, the interned were separated into three classes dependent to a certain extent upon their social standing, but to a greater extent to their ability to meet extra expenses. prisoners were permitted to avail themselves of the regular first-class cabins upon payment in advance of from 5s. to 2s. 6d. a week, according to the number of persons occupying a cabin. At that time the ship was lying off Southend, and Mr. Jackson reported that all the prisoners were locked below decks at night, which caused some nervousness among them owing to the apprehension of danger from Zeppelins. "[THE TIMES Tue. Aug. 18, 1915] Harry Downing is in the 1901 census-age 24; born Steeple Essex; census place Prittlewell. Decorator /Painter Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 29 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2004 Kath, Many thanks for that, will pop down to the library tomorrow see what else i can dig up on that. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 I did a search using the word Zeppelin and Gotha in the Times between the start of the war and the end and found many references (289 for Zeppelin and 15 for Gotha) Here is the link http://infotrac.galegroup.com/itweb/free4_...ookies&sserv=no and the password is: trial Good Hunting! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 1 June , 2004 Share Posted 1 June , 2004 here is an article from Tuesday, Aug 14, 1917 which has some casualty figures at the bottom (just spotted them) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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