Harold Ashford

[Roy Evans]

A local memorial has Harold Ashford 1/6th South Staffs but I can't find him on SDGW or CWGC.

A booklet published by the church in 1920 and now held in the local archives has him as;

"Enlisted in October 1914, in the 1/6th South Staffs, served in France, and was killed in action in April 1916"

Can't find his MIC.

In the 1911 census Harold Victor Ashford (13 years) was living in the same road as the church.

Can't find his death registered in the UK in 1916

Where do I go from here?

Roy

[Phil Evans]

Hello Roy,

The nearest I can find is Bert Ashford

Right month, but 1st Bn North Staffs.

Is any of the family data useful?

Phil

[Roy Evans]

Hello Roy,

The nearest I can find is Bert Ashford

Right month, but 1st Bn North Staffs.

Is any of the family data useful?

Phil

Phil,

No, he was a Wolverhampton man, but thanks for the interest.

Roy

[Verrico2009]

Having the same problem - there isn't an MIC for a man of this name in the Staffords, North or South. Which there should be, presumably, as he died in France. Tried the Harrys too. Only four Ashfords come up in the South Staffs.

Just thinking - he was very young: could he have joined up underage giving a different name? Otherwise no idea where to look.

This is the family in Wolverhampton in 1901:-

Thomas Ashford 45

Caroline Ashford 45

Eveline E Ashford 18

Ernest T Ashford 17

Ellen Ashford 15

Arthur Ashford 14

Charles Ashford 13

Harold V Ashford 3

[John_Hartley]

Nothing in the GRO Overseas Deaths, Roy.

I think a dead end unless you turn up more.

John

[Doug Lewis]

Roy

I've been researching Harold on and off for five years and ran into a dead end.

Regards Doug.

[Verrico2009]

A Thomas Ashford married a Caroline Payne in Wolverhampton in 1881 but I'm not getting anywhere using her surname.

Have tried running through SDGW for casualties to the S Staffs in 1916 and proportionately the 1/6th seems to have higher casualties that April. It appears to be a Territorial Force. Still nothing that would lead to Harold.

Also found this MIC - could he have been attached?

Name: Harold V Ashford

Regiment or Corps: Royal Garrison Artillery

Regimental Number: 189738

Very bare - just the BWM and VM.

[Roy Evans]

Verrico2099

That is indeed the family. I also have them in 1911 by which time his father was dead. The young age had occurred to me also.

Do you know if the R.G.A. guy was killed in 1916?

John

Disappointingly I suspect that you may well be right.

Doug

I was in the local archives yesterday afternoon and found a roll of honour published in book form by the church in 1920. It contained the information in my post above and which is not included on your website, I thought that the 1916 date of death might be an additional lead. I'm looking to do a similar job on this memorial as I did with the Beckminster memorial which is also on your site.

An I.F.T.C. would have been a superb bonus.

Roy

[apwright]

Ancestry has two family trees belonging to a descendant of Harold Victor's brother Arthur ("Powner/Shelley Tree" belonging to member "mickpowner"). There are photos of Arthur as S/Sjt in the AOC (no. A/1592), but nothing on Harold beyond what you already know.

Might be worth contacting?

Adrian

[Roy Evans]

Thanks Adrian,

At this stage anything's worth a try.

Roy

[Verrico2009]

Fraid I can't find a death for Harold V Ashford, Roy - got a Harold Ashford with the MGC (90203) dying in 1917. Nothing matches up! And if the Harold V Ashford in the RGA is your man, it would seem to indicate that he served under his own name, making a hunt for an alias pointless. Also, if it is him, he didn't serve abroad before early 1916 given the absence of a Star, making it unlikely that he was whisked away to die elsewhere in the short space of time available. Unless he did fool the authorities and get a 14/15 Star in a different name. I can feel myself going round in circles!

I had a similar discussion with someone who knows a lot more than I do about these things when considering someone who was born 1901 and is said to have joined up aged 15 - I was assured that the recruiting officers normally had a fairly good idea who was underage and were able to weed out a lot of them, who would be kept on home service until they turned 17, but of course some would squeeze through.

I only had one other thought. The information you have only says that he served in France, not that he died there. The 1916 Easter Uprising in Ireland came to mind, as to my suprise it turned out that is where my great-uncle (my avatar) served (he only managed a short 6-month stint in the North Staffs before being discharged with an SWB) and didn't go on to join the rest of his unit in France (probably a good thing!) - but he didn't enlist until August 1916. To have died there in April would have been a bit tight in terms of time. It just came to mind when I read this thread, where a CWGC commemoration is also proving elusive:-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=143596&hl=

While we're putting our collective minds together, I picked two men from the S Staffs 1/6 known to have died April 1916 to try to get an idea of where Harold would have been if he were an S Staffs man. From CWGC:-

Name: COURT, WALTER NEVILLE

Initials: W N

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment/Service: South Staffordshire Regiment

Unit Text: 1st/6th Bn.

Age: 20

Date of Death: 02/04/1916

Service No: 2886

Additional information: Son of William Henry and Mary Louisa Court, of Blore Heath, Market Drayton, Salop. Native of Wolverhampton.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 18.

Cemetery: ECOIVRES MILITARY CEMETERY, MONT-ST. ELOI (Pas de Calais)

Name: GREEN

Initials: H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Corporal

Regiment/Service: South Staffordshire Regiment

Unit Text: 1st/6th Bn.

Age: 27

Date of Death: 20/04/1916

Service No: 3644

Additional information: Husband of Annie Green. Native of Wolverhampton.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. E. 1.

Cemetery: ECOIVRES MILITARY CEMETERY, MONT-ST. ELOI

So they didn't move far in this time. I haven't found a 1/6 man who died later than this yet but I was focusing on men from Wolverhampton and will spread the net wider.

Historical info on Ecoivres: The 46th (North Midland) Division took over the extension with this part of the line in March 1916, and their graves are in Rows A to F of Plot I. Successive divisions used the French military tramway to bring their dead in from the front line trenches and, from the first row to the last, burials were made almost exactly in the order of date of death. The attack of the 25th Division on Vimy Ridge in May 1916 is recalled in Plots I and II. The 47th (London) Division burials (July to October 1916) are in Plot III, Rows A to H, and Canadian graves are an overwhelming majority in the rest of the cemetery, Plots V and VI containing the graves of men killed in the capture of Vimy Ridge in April 1917 The graves of eight men of the 51st (Highland) Division who had been buried by the 153rd Brigade in March, 1916, in what became known as Bray Military Cemetery, due South of the Mount, between the hamlet of Bray and the Bois de Maraeuil, were moved after the Armistice in to Plot VIII, Row A. Ecoivres Military Cemetery contains 1,728 Commonwealth burials of the First World War. There are also 786 French and four German war graves.

[Roy Evans]

Thanks for your trouble.

It was the 2/6th South Staffords who served in Ireland before going to the Western Front, the 1/6th did not serve there.

By a coincidence, Walter Neville Court is featured in my book on the 1/6th and 2/6th South Staffords due out in a couple of months!

I've checked the 1/6th war diary for April 1916 and it records 5 KiA, 5 DoW, and 1 Missing. When I get a chance I'll run a check with SDGW to see if the 5 + 5 tie up, I've a sneaking suspicion that our man might be the one listed Missing.

Roy

[Roy Evans]

SDGW lists 7 KiA and 2 DoW.

Roy

[KevinBattle]

Roy, pardon my intrusion, but if Harold Victor Ashford was aged 3 in the 1901 Census, he could have been born in 1898, making him 18 in 1916... therefore not underage at time of death.... If his brother was a S/Sjt in the AOC, perhaps he was able to train in the UK before being sent to France in time to die sometime in April 1916.

Your first post says he is on a Wolverhampton Church Memorial and that he was living in the same street as that Church, but doesn't identify either the Church or the Street Name.... can you provide that detail, as it might help.

Your post #8 says that in the 1911 Census his father was dead, so is it possible that his mother remarried after the Census and that he served under his stepfathers name, which is why you can't trace him as Ashford, although locally they may have used his birth surname.... His brother Arthur, being 11 years older, may have kept his original surname, just to make things complex for you!!

That MAY tie in with the H Green in Verrico's post #11, and perhaps adding 10 years onto his age might be possible, changing the 1898 to 1888 (or use Arthur's documents changing an "A" to an "H"??? His records show his wife as Next of Kin, therefore no neat tie back to a "late Thomas Ashcroft" or "Mrs C Ashcroft" or "Caroline".

Perhaps a Marriage record for a Caroline Ashcroft to a Mr Green might solve the problem???

[Roy Evans]

Kevin,

So many ifs and buts........

The only definite I can give you is that the church is Newhampton Road Wesleyan Chapel, Wolverhampton (now known as Cranmer Methodist Church).

In 1901 the family were living at 79, Newhampton Road and in 1911 at 89, Newhampton Road - that's assuming that I have the right family!

Interestingly there are 172 men on the roll of honour and the book shows 164 photographs. Guess who is one of the eight not shown........

Roy

[Verrico2009]

Interesting concept, Kevin, but unfortunately I chose H Green purely because he was the latest date in April I could find and while I took the details from CWGC, I believe from memory that SDGW had him as a Henry and I never thought he could be linked to Harold. But certainly your theory about him having a stepfather and a possible change of name for him in that respect is interesting.

So I guess now it's a question of whether any Harolds died with 1/6 S Staffs in April 1916...

[Doug Lewis]

Hi Roy

Yes I've seen the memorial book, I photocopied it, the only information I have is what you have but I didn't put on it my website because it is as yet unconfirmed.

Regards Doug

[Doug Lewis]

Verrico2009

According to SDGW there were no men who were casualties with the first name Harold, but there were 11 officers.

Regards Doug.

[PaulC78]

This is the pension ledger for Harold Victor Ashford:

 

 

It looks very much like this man died in 1961.