Pith Helmet questions!

[hadfield]

Hi all,

With reference to the above pictures, can anyone tell the period of this helmet and anything about the 'XV' badge/flash on the side of this helmet? Incidently, inside the liner is a faint stamp, it reads:

R

W ^ (nb: ^ is the closest I can find on my keyboard to a Broad Arrow)

16

Also soldiers name and regimental number is written on the outside of the liner. Thanks in advance!

Regs

Brimstone.

[Liam]

Are you able to post the name and regimental number?

That way a check of MIC may give some clues to the soldier's period of service

Liam

[hadfield]

Are you able to post the name and regimental number?

That way a check of MIC may give some clues to the soldier's period of service

Liam

Hi Liam,

Hell! You were quick off the mark and a good idea to boot, the soldiers name is 'Thompson' his number is '983847' I think, it is a little difficult to make out the last two digits. As you have probably guessed the 'R' is supposed to over the Broad Arrow and the '16' under it. Good luck!

Regs

Hadleigh

[Wardog]

My guess so far, just after the war and before the new serial numbers of 1920. Also usualy the letter is bellow the arrow, number above on Great War clothing. If the serial number was a post 1920 one, it would be RA.

[Andrew Upton]

How is the lining held in place? If it's held by four removable split pins then it's the "Vero patent", only introduced in 1925. If it's permanently rivetted in it tends to be earlier. Foil lining tends to suggest post-war as well.

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

I think the XV relates to the East Yorkshire Regt, but I am prepared to be shot down.

regards

John

[wainfleet]

I would guess 15th Hussars. Looks well postwar; I have seen many wartime helmets and none has ever had the silver paper in it, plus the puggaree looks like the 3-4 folds of khaki drill typical of WW2 as opposed to the bulkier 7-8 folds of flimsier material used in WW1.

[Chris P]

It's an early WW2 helmet. The 'R' over WD dating it to 1939.

The service no is within the '39 block allocation to the Royal Artillery, which was 721000 to 1800000 odd, as was previously mentioned.

The liner is post WW1...Definitely a WW2 helmet.

Chris P

[Krithia]

Hi Chris,

I havent heard of the letter denoting the date for the WD marks before. Is this a WWII thing or does this also apply to WW1? I did start making a list of WD marks in the past to try and figure out any patterns, e.g. date, manufacture, batch number etc. This helmet looks WWII most definately, so if "R" is 1939 does that make "S" 1940 and so on. Are the dates calender dates from Jan - Dec or seasonal dates for the hating trade?

thanks, Steve

[Chris P]

Steve...

Not quite as simple as that!

The dates work backwards from R = 39, P = 40 , O = 41. And so on, to 44 - then 45 is a Z.. These marks are the WD acceptance / inspectors stamps, but it's not 100%. Sometimes occasionally they are a year out.. I suspect this is maybe when something is made in December for instance, & not stamped till Jan. It works 99% of the time.

I've studied this over the years from dated examples in my own collection, & indeed hundreds, if not thousands more from ebay, etc listings, so know it to be correct. It's often a good indication of when something is not quite as it should be also.

I've not seen anything like enough prior to 39 that works this this way - interwar uniform being a lot less available to study, but do know it doesnt apply to WW1 period clothing & headgear. The letters from then tend to denote the type of clothing, i.e M in trousers & tunics, P = waterproof (I think - notes not to hand). I too have studied the various WW1 marks & can find no other correlation. The no. is simply the inspectors number.

There will be others here who know more about the WW1 nos. than me. ... Hopefully!

Chris P

[Chris P]

Just to add to that, the R,P, etc for the year run to a calendar year -, Jan - Dec. As far as WW2 items go, they can be found in headwear - all types excluding steel helmets; All clothing, from underwear to smocks, greatcoats, battledress, kit bags, & many related items, but curiously never in knitted clothing, i.e. sweaters or ties.....

Chris P

[Joe Sweeney]

Steve...

Not quite as simple as that!

The dates work backwards from R = 39, P = 40 , O = 41. And so on, to 44 - then 45 is a Z.. These marks are the WD acceptance / inspectors stamps, but it's not 100%. Sometimes occasionally they are a year out.. I suspect this is maybe when something is made in December for instance, & not stamped till Jan. It works 99% of the time.

I've studied this over the years from dated examples in my own collection, & indeed hundreds, if not thousands more from ebay, etc listings, so know it to be correct. It's often a good indication of when something is not quite as it should be also.

I've not seen anything like enough prior to 39 that works this this way - interwar uniform being a lot less available to study, but do know it doesnt apply to WW1 period clothing & headgear. The letters from then tend to denote the type of clothing, i.e M in trousers & tunics, P = waterproof (I think - notes not to hand). I too have studied the various WW1 marks & can find no other correlation. The no. is simply the inspectors number.

There will be others here who know more about the WW1 nos. than me. ... Hopefully!

Chris P

Chris P,

I published the following in French in 2005--its not based on finding the holy grail of RACD acceptance stamps only on observation and a few concrete primary references.

"Two types of acceptance stamps could be found on jackets prior to the outbreak of the Great War. For articles manufactured under contract the acceptance stamp consisted of the War Department broad arrow over a number and year. Since articles of clothing were only viewed at the RACD depot at Pimlico this might correspond to the month and year of acceptance. The other pre-war stamp was for articles made at the Royal Army Clothing Factory (RACF) and this only consisted of the broad arrow with a letter code. The nature of the acceptance stamps changed as the war progressed. Many varieties can be found on articles manufactured during the winter of 1914/1915 but by the time approval of RACD pattern 8407/1915 a system was put in place to reflect the greatly expanded inspection system. This modified acceptance stamps now consisted of a number code over the War Department broad arrow over a letter code. The number and letter code can be found reversed, but this may reflect a late war change, as most articles that have a letter over the War Department broad arrow over a number are late war or post war dated. Although no definitive meanings of these codes have been found some conclusions may be drawn. Commonly encountered letter codes include L, M, N, O. and P. These letter codes appear to correspond to types of commodities. Conjecturally, these codes may refer to specific commodities at specific clothing depots tasked to receive those commodities. The letter O is commonly found on articles of waterproofed clothing, e.g. capes, waders, etc. The letter’s L, M, and N are commonly found on articles of Service Dress uniforms and the letter P on caps. The number code may correspond to a specific inspector at a clothing depot designated by a letter. This is likely since definitive evidence has been located that states individual inspectors were identifiable by the stamps. As for the War Department, there actually was no separate distinct part or branch of the British government called the War Department. In this context it is used generically to describe any department under the War Office or Army."

Joe Sweeney

[Krithia]

Hi Chris/Joe,

Interesting stuff, the letter codes for WWII kit now rings a bell and agree this is highly likely the case. For WW1 there seems a variation depending if pre war, early war or late war as Joe has indicated. Out of interest has any noticed the stamps in wolseley / pith helmets. I have seen many dated examples from 1907 to 1916 with the full date given, e.g. "1915", a "WD" and then a number. Now, has anyone seen a number greater than "12" in a Wolseley? I have come across 1- 9 so suspect these could be the months of manufacture, any comments? Likewise has anyone got a 1917, 1918 or 1919 dated wolseley?

Joe, you say earlier "This is likely since definitive evidence has been located that states individual inspectors were identifiable by the stamps". This is really interesting, can you elaborate what this evidence is, as I had thought, right or wrong that the numbers were possibly manufactures numbers. E.g. in order to identify/link the manufacturer of the item if the item was later to be found substandard. The inspector mark also works for me. Have you ever matched two separate clothing items that share the identical acceptance stamps?

regards, Krithia

[Wardog]

I have a rather tatty 1917 one to LF. Looks to be O under W/l\D 158 above. 1917 in the centre of a circle with faint markings arround it-'possibly' 11 G ? R LTD. The ? is a smudge.' so unable to guess it. Regards, Paul.

[Joe Sweeney]

Joe, you say earlier "This is likely since definitive evidence has been located that states individual inspectors were identifiable by the stamps". This is really interesting, can you elaborate what this evidence is, as I had thought, right or wrong that the numbers were possibly manufactures numbers. E.g. in order to identify/link the manufacturer of the item if the item was later to be found substandard. The inspector mark also works for me. Have you ever matched two separate clothing items that share the identical acceptance stamps?

regards, Krithia

Krithia,

That quote actually came out of a RACD Document from the war--I'm not home so I acn't remeber the actual dcument. It might have come out of the Debenham report on RACD organization 1915 or Army Ordnance Regulations Part 1.

I've never actually looked to see if there was a match in anything I own.

The letter code is still a mystery and I stated the above only observation and the codes may have changed through the war. Most caps have a P code--although Wainfleet and Tocemma posted soft SD caps marked with an O.

Joe Sweeney

[Wardog]

Ah...could be HG&R LTD. Was looking for a 1-12 and tricked my own eyes until I looked at the picture. Cheers, Paul.

[hadfield]

Hi all,

Many thanks for for the information and discussion thus far, it has been really helpful and greatly appreciated!

Regs

Brimstone.

[stuart_bates]

The headband if fixed directly to the helmet shell would indicate that it replaced the original, either as a field replacement or to make the helmet more saleable. Ventilation between the helmet shell and the headband was an all important feature of British sun helmets.

The 3 pleat puggaree dates it to the very late 30s /early 40s and the foil lining was patented in 1933.

For the East Yorks the top pleat of the puggaree was dark blue in addition to the flash, but variations would always appear over time. One thing you can say about British insignia, such as these, is that "nothing is impossible."

Stuart

www.militarysunhelmets.com

[Herekawe]

Hi

I have never handled or seen one of these helmets except on films or TV. Do they have any protection function or are they purely to keep the sun off?

James

[Krithia]

Just the sun and its affects. They were predominantly made out of cork, some were actually wicker, so they would not shield against anything fired at or dropping onto the helmet.

[Andrew Upton]

I have never handled or seen one of these helmets except on films or TV. Do they have any protection function or are they purely to keep the sun off?

They are actually very functional items. The Wolseley style was made mostly in cork, but also in felt. Both can be dunked in water to soak them, and then worn whilst still wet. The heat then evaporates the water in them, helping keep the temperature of them down until it's all gone.

[Krithia]

Both can be dunked in water to soak them, and then worn whilst still wet. The heat then evaporates the water in them, helping keep the temperature of them down until it's all gone.

I hope that is not ration drinking water they are using on their sun helmets ... no wonder men were dying of thirst in the desert !

[Andrew Upton]

I hope that is not ration drinking water they are using on their sun helmets ... no wonder men were dying of thirst in the desert !

But quite correct - this is why some of the private purchase helmets had eleborate quilted and padded finishes, to retain the water more effectively. The link below is to one such helmet. Additional sun flaps for the Wolseleys and peaked caps are sometimes found in the same quilted finish as well.

http://www.buywyze.com/shop/viewphoto.php?...6747&phqu=0

[stuart_bates]

How did the quilted pattern help to retain water? The one cited is a Cawnpore and not a Wolseley which never had the quilted exterior.

Neck curtains were used for Wolseleys and I have seen a few photographs of this but never a quilted version. But such neck curtains are very rare indeed.

Stuart

www.militarysunhelmets.com

[Andrew Upton]

How did the quilted pattern help to retain water? The one cited is a Cawnpore and not a Wolseley which never had the quilted exterior.

Neck curtains were used for Wolseleys and I have seen a few photographs of this but never a quilted version. But such neck curtains are very rare indeed.

I don't know the science, but that's how the quilting works - at least one modern brand of kitchen roll sells itself on the same principle of "thirst pockets" absorbing more water:

http://www.tellyads.com/show_movie.php?filename=TA3512

No where in my post did I say the Wolseleys had the quilted finish, I wrote "some of the private purchase helmets had eleborate quilted and padded finishes". No "Wolseley" there.

I've seen the quilted flaps for the Wolseleys. Whilst I don't own an original, I do own a film made copy which has had the padded finish effect added to it.