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Remembered Today:

herefordshire's


platty

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Michael

Thank you for providing the reference for the Yeomanry Mounted Division. I 've been wondering about, why the men who disembarked at Port Said would then have travelled to Alexandria when their ship had already called there earlier? There is a record on Ancestry for a 1/4th Cheshire man who also disembarked at Port Said 04/08/15, from the Euripides. He was transferred to 357 (Water) Coy RE, then travelled to Mustapha and encamped 05/08/15. He then appears to have disembarked for Gallipoli on 17th August on what looks like the "Canada", (handwriting is not clear). I am wondering if these men disembarked at Port Said for training (Tony's grandfather as a signaller) and then joined the 53rd Division at Gallipoli later.

I ommitted the arrival of the other troops at Mudros, their having to transfer to Snaefell and then their transfer at 'A' beach to trawlers to take them to 'C' beach, as it doesn't appear to be relevant to Tony's research, however these men don't appear to have disembarked anywhere along their journey. I read somewhere, but can not put my hands on it at the moment, that a number of these men who disembarked at Suvla were unfit as they had not been able to exercise properly, since embarking at Devonport on the 16th July.

Myrtle

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I 've been wondering about, why the men who disembarked at Port Said would then have travelled to Alexandria when their ship had already called there earlier?

I've no ready explanation for that. There may be a perfectly good reason which I do not yet know, or it may be another example of the sort of *****-up, which came to characterize this operation

There is a record on Ancestry for a 1/4th Cheshire man who also disembarked at Port Said 04/08/15, from the Euripides. He was transferred to 357 (Water) Coy RE, then travelled to Mustapha and encamped 05/08/15. He then appears to have disembarked for Gallipoli on 17th August on what looks like the "Canada", (handwriting is not clear). I am wondering if these men disembarked at Port Said for training (Tony's grandfather as a signaller) and then joined the 53rd Division at Gallipoli later.

With the example which you quote, then that seems to be a very likely explanation. It would also tie in with the case I mentioned earlier of the RE signaler who wrote an article, never once mentioning his signals unit, but always referring/implying that the Herefords were his lot.

I read somewhere, but can not put my hands on it at the moment, that a number of these men who disembarked at Suvla were unfit as they had not been able to exercise properly, since embarking at Devonport on the 16th July.

There's a quote in Tom Johnstone's 'Orange Green and Khaki'

"being five weeks without exercise had made us rather soft"

I think that he got it from H. Hanna's 'The Pals at Suvla: D Company, the 7th Royal Dublin Fusiliers.'

Dare I say it; another example of a *****-up here!

best regards

Michael

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Myrtle,

A Theory for your Consideration

There is a very long foot-note on page 286 of the Official History (vol.ii) which describes the make-up of the 53rd Div.,

"…the 158th Brigade had lost the 1/4th R. Welch Fusiliers, replaced by the 1/1st Hereford, the only battalion of the Welch Border Brigade left at home by February 1915."

But the 1/4th R. Welch Fusiliers were by no means the division's only loss prior to Gallipoli; amongst others were "One field company, also sent to France, had been replaced by a 2nd-Line unit."

What if this was not true/or only partly correct? This division was turned upside-down only three months before it left Britain. Perhaps on the voyage they realized that the "2nd-Line unit" was not enough and that they had to supply their own signalers from within the ranks of their infantry? Would this explain the diversion of so many men? And what could be easier than to take these prospective REs from the infantry battalion (1/1st Herefords) which had been (forgive the expression) their last choice?

This is less than forensic, but it is a possible explanation, until the truth turns up (if ever)

with best regards

Michael

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Myrtle,

Further to my above theory;

The Order of Battle given in the OH refers to the 53rd Div's two RE units as

1/1st Welsh & 2/1st Cheshire Field Coys. RE

However, the Royal Engineers web-site refers to a third RE unit serving with the 53rd Div at Gallipoli

See http://www.remuseum.org.uk/corpshistory/re...rt14.htm#gallip

The third company is given as the 2/2nd Cheshire Field Company

Could this third company have been raised in Egypt from the diverted Herefords?

regards

Michael

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Michael

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

I will get back to you as soon as possible with a more considered reply. Work needs my full attention today!

Regards

Myrtle

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Myrtle,

Following advice from Hywyn, I have purchased the Divisional (Infantry) WD from the NA, and have skipped through the pages for the 1/1 Herefords.

My theory of last night now begins to look pretty weak, as both officers and 187 of the 193 men who left in Egypt, later turn up as 'Reinforcements'

The diary extracts are as foll:

1/1st Herefordshire Regt. T.F., 158th Infantry Brigade, 53rd Division MEF

4 Aug: Orders received to disembark all in excess of 25 officers and 750 O.R. 1st Herefords disembarked Capt. G. Barker & 2/Lt. W. H. Lloyd with 193 O.R., who proceeded by train the same day to Alexandria

22 Aug: Sunday. Two men accidentally shot themselves. At night the Bn. Moved to HILL 10 (117 R.5 – this ref not absolutely clear; looks like R and S but cannot be) where it was said, trenches partially completed would be found. Incorrect. The Bn. Had to dig all night. About 24.00 2/Lt. W. H. Lloyd and 187 O.R. joined Bn. from Alexandria

August 1915, Appendix IV, notes that 2/Lt W H Lloyd and 187 O.R. arrived as 'Reinforcements'

21 Oct: Capt. F. G. Barker joined unit from Alexandria this day

October 1915, Appendix I notes that Capt Barker arrived as 'Reinforcements'

I'm sorry not to have been of more help here

regards

Michael

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Michael

You have been very helpful. Thank you. Your posting the request on the Units thread has uncovered the bargain of the week following Hywyn's advice; the 53rd(infantry) WD. Not only have I found the missing first half of the Herefords August WD but I have also found that Hill's History of The Herefordshire Regiment has a misprint of 103 ORs rather than the correct 193. Why the NA didn't point out that I could recover the missing information from the 53rd Document, I don't know.

To get back to Tony's question about his grandfather and if he was at Gallipoli. There is a slight possibility that he wasn't, however if he talked of being there, then he would have been there. Tony, did your grandfather give your father any information about his time at Gallipoli?

Regards

Myrtle

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hi myrtle

i'm afraid the details are rather poor all we know that he was in the herefords and that he said he landed at suvla.i think like alot of the men he didn't talk much about the war and he died in 1965 before i was born so i never met him

tony

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hi myrtle

i'm afraid the details are rather poor all we know that he was in the herefords and that he said he landed at suvla.i think like alot of the men he didn't talk much about the war and he died in 1965 before i was born so i never met him

tony

Hello Tony

Unless proved otherwise, I would say that he landed at Suvla but later than the 9th August 1915.

Myrtle

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hi myrtle

just spoke to my dad and he said grandad and his mates had nick names for the hills and mountains there was hannah farter 1 and 2 and also he had remembered a terrific naval bombardment which took the top off choclate mountain.know idea which hills these were.also have you any idea why he would change his regiment in 1915?

tony

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hannah farter 1 and 2 and also he had remembered a terrific naval bombardment which took the top off choclate mountain

The first map will give you some idea of the terrain of the Suvla battlefield.

MapGeneralSuvlatheatre.jpg

The second map is an enlargement taken from another, and shows the area to the east of the Salt Lake.

"hannah farter 1 and 2" refers to two villages shown on the map below as Anafarta Sagir and

Biyuk Anafarta. "Chocolate Mountain" must be Chocolate Hill

MapSuvladetailChocHillAnafartas.jpg

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thanks michael ,the maps are very good i think my dad will be very interested seeing them.i thought the names were nick names but they were real places!!.

tony

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Tony/Michael

Good to hear of the nicknames and good maps.

I have just checked the Queen's account of the attack on the 21st August 1915 when the naval guns were aimed on the Chocolate Hill area.

I'm wondering if this would have been described by your grandfather as the guns taking the top off Chocolate Hill because he would have been seeing this attack from further back, having just arrived from Alexandria as part of the 187 Other Ranks with 2/Lt W.H. Lloyd. These men didn't join the rest of the Herefords in the Hill 10 area until the night of the 22nd August. If this was the first sight that your grandfather had of Gallipoli it would have left a lasting impression.

Herefordshire War Diary: 21st August: Big battle in front of Chocolate Hill.

22nd August : About 2400 2/Lt W.H. Lloyd and 187 ORs joined Battalion from Alexandria.

Michael

Do you have a map handy which shows Hill 10 in relation to Chocolate Hill, to show Tony? If not I will scan one of mine tomorrow and post.

Tony

You asked why your grandfather would have moved from the Herefords to the Royal Engineers. It may have something to do with him having been a clerk. Men who had worked as clerks or with the post office or in similar types of jobs were often picked to serve in the Signals. I notice that there are some pension papers on Ancestry for a Hereford man with the next RE number to your grandfather, who had also worked as a clerk, in his case at the Flour Mill in Hereford. If, as Michael mentioned earlier, it was found that the 53rd Division needed more men for Signals these men may have been transferred to the Royal Engineers in Egypt for specialist training.

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Do you have a map handy which shows Hill 10 in relation to Chocolate Hill, to show Tony?

No problem; this is part of map showing the final trench lines before the allies withdrew in December 1915

[all above maps from the IWM/N&M Press CD-Rom]

SuvlaMap.jpg

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  • 3 years later...

Hi Myrtle.

Are you still compiling a database for the Herefordshire regiment? Where is it - or where will it be - available? My grandfather and 2 of his cousins served in the 1st/1st. One of the cousins died at Gallipoli, my grandfather "volunteered" for the ICC and the other cousin died of wounds and is buried at Bois Grenier.

Regards

LC

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  • 3 weeks later...

Steve

I can't quite work out how Alfred etc fits this thread but in case it helps:

Lawrence Whittaker 345306 RWF is on Absent Voters 1918 for 5 Clare Street, Birkenhead. No one else (military) at the address.

Hywyn

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  • 3 years later...

I've only just found this thread while looking for more information about the Herefordshire Regiment myself. For anyone else who is interested in the regiment, the regimental war diaries together with additional information, including photos, extracts from diaries and newspaper accounts, are being published as a monthly blog 100 years on (eg the diary for July 1915 was published in July 2015) here: http://herefordshirelightinfantrymuseum.com/index.php/war-diaries/

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