zijde26 Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Beneath a scan of an old postcard Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Was there a mill on the top of the ' Kemmelberg ' ? Does anyone have a picture of this ' Kemmel mill ' ? Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 I tend to agree. And the contourlines on the map maybe could help a little ? Yet, being a little self-critical... The men on the initial photo are French, aren't they. I was just wondering : if this is the slope Roel has in mind, wouldn't that be a slope turned towards the enemy (south / southwest) ? And wouldn't we expect French dug-outs to be on a slope away from the enemy ? Away from hostile artillery and view ? But then, as Joris has already pointed out, the photo is also in Koen Baert's "Kemmel 1918", p. 31, saying that it is in "de overgang [transition] from Monteberg naar Kemmelberg"... So ... Gilbert, I don't think there was a mill on top of Kemmel Hill. But I am not a local expert. But I've never seen a pre-war photo. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 In the Book "Heuvelland graag gezien" there is no mention or Photos of any Windmill on the top of the Kemmelberg.The Slopes were also very heavily wooded,and the dominant man made feature was the "Belvedere" Tower.The nearest Windmill appears to have been at the Lettingberg.The 4 photos i have shows the Windmill (Lettingbergmolen) standing on the side of the Lokerstraat.The Windmill itself was very visible for a good few Miles.one of the Photos in the Book,shows the Windmill in a very poor state of repair and about to be demolished in 1905. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Beneath a scan of an old postcard Gilbert Deraedt The Road is the Lokerstraat,and that is the Lettingbergmolen in the background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 9 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2010 I was just wondering : if this is the slope Roel has in mind, wouldn't that be a slope turned towards the enemy (south / southwest) ? And wouldn't we expect French dug-outs to be on a slope away from the enemy ? Away from hostile artillery and view ? I also think these positions originally were on a slope away from the enemy. So Montebergstraat/Kleine Kemmelbergstraat would make sense. Maybe near to where the French ossuary now is? The road is quite steep there. The caption in my initial post says the photo was taken april 23rd, and the position was taken by the Germans one or two days later. As the map shows this slope was no longer away from the enemy on the 23rd. The Germans were pretty much in their back. So it's not unlikely these dugouts were smashed completely by the furious German barrage on the 24th, leaving no trace nowadays whatsoever. But I'll surely visit the location to see for myself...(no idea when that will be...) Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 I reckon that these positions are very near the summit of Kemmelberg near what is now the Hostellrie Hotel.the surrounding area is still heavily scarred with the visible marks of Shell holes,Trenches,etc,etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 9 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2010 I doubt these positions are the same. The German caption in post #33 mentions 'hastily dug trenches', no dugouts like the first pic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 I doubt these positions are the same. The German caption mentions 'hastily dug trenches', no dugouts like the first pic... I posted the Other German Photos up top give People viewing this Topic some idea of how steep Kemmelberg can be.I would suspect as per the German Photo caption that the Dug outs/Trenches are of British construction as The British had been in possession of Kemmelberg since late 1914,and so had had plenty of time to Dig in and construct defences,Aid Posts,Command posts,Artillery positons etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Ryckeboer Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 I could not stand it anymore, and I visit the place where I thought it was. After work today, on my way home. Tomorrow; I'll try to take an then and now picture! The place is an natural basin. Well hidden in the sloop. Must have been here: (The road I was on and where I pinpointed the View mark, is where the skyline was on the ancient picture.) http://maps.google.be/maps/ms?hl=nl&ie...mp;t=h&z=15 And an other german map extract: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 9 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Looking forward to your photo's, Joris! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Ryckeboer Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Me too!! I hope it will work out to capture it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 http://www.flanderland.de/locations-orte/kemmel/30/ Images on Pages 3 and 4 look very interesting ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Looking forward to seeing the pics too ! For I am about to give up ... :-( If the dug-outs are between Montebergstraat and Kleine Kemmelstraat (Roel), I don't understand why the French and/or British troops established them there, in full view of German artillery. I would have expected them to be on the other (north) side of Kemmel Hill. Near the French Ossuary, as Roel suggested ? (That is where Kleine Kemmelstraat and Kemmelbergweg en Lokerdreef come together (see satellite pic) .) Not sure either. That is northwest of the top ... Joris' pics must bring a solution. Hurry up, Joris, before the trees have leaves ! :-) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 9 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2010 If the dug-outs are between Montebergstraat and Kleine Kemmelstraat (Roel), I don't understand why the French and/or British troops established them there, in full view of German artillery. I would have expected them to be on the other (north) side of Kemmel Hill. Were they also in full view of the German artillery before april 1918? Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Ryckeboer Posted 9 March , 2010 Share Posted 9 March , 2010 Aurel, have you checked my google map-link? I hope to explain it tomorrow by taking pictures. But when you stand on the road Montebergstraat(= approx. top of the "ridge" from the Kleine Kemmelberg), where I placed the View marker, you have a magnificent view towards Wulvergem, Mesen, Wijtschate, Waasten,... the frontline. When you go down the slope (descent some 20 meters', see the picture and lines of altitude=same slope and same altitude, percentage, etc...)) to the place I placed the marker , where I believe the dugouts where, you're hidden by the ridge from the German point of view. In a perfect natural basin. Damned, my English today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 10 March , 2010 Share Posted 10 March , 2010 Were they also in full view of the German artillery before april 1918? Roel The Village of Kemmel and the Hill itself remained almost totally untouched by German Artillery from 1914 until the Great attack in April.Indeed the village and its surrounds were considered a safe rest area for Troops.There are often Battalion accounts of Officers and Men attending Regimental Band concerts on the village square at Kemmel,whilst some Troops would also go Fishing in the Moat at Kemmel Chateau or feed the pair of Swans that lived in the Moat.Kemmel itself must have indeed have been considered very safe,as King George V paid a visit there along with many high ranking Officers in July 1917.An excellent personal account which covers the early 1914/15 part of the war at Kemmel,Balla,Loker,Drainoutre,(Also Known as Drain out) is "The Burgoyne Diaries" .Achilles Burgoyne was an Officer in 2nd Battalion Irish Rifles.There are some very good sketches in the Book which were drawn by Burgoyne at the time.Burgoyne does mention that Kemmel Village had suffered some German artillery damage in very early 1914,but that the local inhabitants soon had this repaired,and were doing a brisk trade selling Cafe Rhum,and Egg and Chips to the Soldiery.Church services were held at Kemmel Church,and Burgoyne remarks that he often took his men for route marches around Kemmel Hill,as it was peaceful,and he enjoyed the countryside.Mrs Van Den Weghe who lives at Kemmel told me that the roads from Kemmel to Bailleul,had many of these Egg and Chip Stalls lining the sides of the roads,and that some Families were able to retire after the war with the Money that they had made from their business.So not so dangerous in/around Kemmel up until April 18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 10 March , 2010 Share Posted 10 March , 2010 Were they also in full view of the German artillery before april 1918? Roel Roel, Yes they were. Depending of course what is meant by "full". The lines between 1914 and beginning 1918 were always east and southeast of Kemmel Hill. And it seems to me that the dugouts are facing south, maybe southwest ? But of course the distance was longer then, let's say an average of 6 tot 10 km. But anyway, I would think that when troops made dugouts on a hill slope, they would always make them on the side turned away from the enemy, even if the distance was "safe". Knowing that the front line s of course could come nearer. which indeed happened... Aurel Added later : But what I wrote in this posting was written ... before I had read PBI's posting. Maybe I should have been less hasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 10 March , 2010 Share Posted 10 March , 2010 Aurel, have you checked my google map-link? I hope to explain it tomorrow by taking pictures. But when you stand on the road Montebergstraat(= approx. top of the "ridge" from the Kleine Kemmelberg), where I placed the View marker, you have a magnificent view towards Wulvergem, Mesen, Wijtschate, Waasten,... the frontline. When you go down the slope (descent some 20 meters', see the picture and lines of altitude=same slope and same altitude, percentage, etc...)) to the place I placed the marker , where I believe the dugouts where, you're hidden by the ridge from the German point of view. In a perfect natural basin. Joris, Yes, I had had a close look at the Google map. And ... gave no comment. Because I saw .... 4 markers (confusing for me, for I see 4 times the same colour, and maybe they are different colours, but since I am a little colour blind, this is a little embarrassing for me ... :-( It seems the 4 markers are on or near the 120 meter contour line (I am referring to the map in posting # 8 now) Possibly indeed hidden from the German view by a ridge, but the 4 markers are playing tricks on me. But again : I too at first sight thought of a location between Montebergstraat and Kemmelbergweg, but the only problem I had was the German view. But there may be a ridge indeed hiding them. Also : I don't know when the dugouts were made, and maybe it was in an early period, at a time that this slope was still relatively safe, compared to later in the war. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Ryckeboer Posted 10 March , 2010 Share Posted 10 March , 2010 They were hidden by the sloops. But I adjust a little bit the place I thought it was. Because of the comparison I made on the spot. But in fact, you have to see it... And the road was at that time allready there. And a HQ had to be accesible. http://maps.google.be/maps/ms?hl=nl&ie...mp;t=h&z=17 And the pictures... But it was almost impossible to have a comparison. To much bushes... Foto down the road and sloop: Behind the pole in the distance and the curve of the road, on the right (in a little bassin), you see an meadow. I think we can also see that in front of the dugouts. Foto up the road (at the pole on the second picture), from the place I think the picture was taken: Turning left from that position towards the slope (meadow at our left)... But I can be terribly wrong!!! This weekend, I give my contacts a few beers and maybe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Ryckeboer Posted 10 March , 2010 Share Posted 10 March , 2010 From the place on the ridge, see my google link, where you have the view towards the frontlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 10 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2010 Thanks for the pics, Joris. No sign of the dugouts? The entrances are most likely gone, but I also see steps in the original photo... Roe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Ryckeboer Posted 10 March , 2010 Share Posted 10 March , 2010 No traces left... But as I said, I can be terrible wrong about the spots... After this weekend, I hope to know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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