Why did they join up?

[cathal1972]

I would be interested in thoughts on why so many southern Irish men joined up and served in the Great War.

My understanding is (correct me if I am wrong) that in excess of 200,000 men joined up. If you consider the eligible population (male, of suitable age, medically fit etc), that must represent a very significant proportion of those that could have served. Bearing in mind that southern Catholic men might have had less "patriotic" reasons to join-up (in comparison to northern loyalists or eligible men in England/Scotland/Wales), why then so many?

My father remembers talking to veterans in our locality (North Cork) about this, who after talking about defending small nations, looking after Catholic Belgium etc, admitted that in their cases it was economic-at least in the British army you had bed and board, and money was sent back to the family.

Were they fighting for Home Rule (a la John Redmond), was it solidarity with small nations, were they looking for adventure, or was it simply to put bread on the table?

Thoughts/anecdotes welcome.

Regards,

Cathal.

[archangel9]

Cathal,

Some statistics that might be of interest -

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Taoiseach_..._World_War.html

But your question was why did they join? I suppose for all the reasons you mention and more. My Great Grandfather had served in the Duke Of Connaughts Own Sligo Artillery and enlisted in the Connaught Rangers in December 1914. I know he had lost friends and relatives by then who were serving with the Rangers and I like to think he enlisted out of a sense of duty to them. As for his earlier service that was almost certainly to help feed his family.

John

[johnny_doyle]

just posted this link to another forum earlier today re numbers of Irish who enlisted and why...

http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/irishhistoryliv...eFirstWorldWar/

I'm led to believe that my Gt Grandfather joined up when he was drunk. Aged 41 at the time with 4 young children and a good job in the cooperage at Guinness.

[centurion]

Worth pointing out that at the time loyalists were not so much confined to the North as later (after 1920 there was was low key insidious form of ethnic cleansing in the South , especially of middle class professionals and members of my own family who had served felt constrained to move up to Omagh over time). My Grandfather enlisted in Dublin but after the war found it only possible to get employment in the North. Mainly a subtle economic pressure although one member of the family was threatened with having his house burned, So bear in mind that at one time there were Southern loyalists

[corisande]

Worth pointing out that at the time loyalists were not so much confined to the North as later (after 1920 there was was low key insidious form of ethnic cleansing in the South , especially of middle class professionals and members of my own family who had served felt constrained to move up to Omagh over time). My Grandfather enlisted in Dublin but after the war found it only possible to get employment in the North. Mainly a subtle economic pressure although one member of the family was threatened with having his house burned,

I would go along with that, its the reason I was brought up in Belfast - I always tell people in England that the family was "ethnically cleansed" from Dublin, and they look a bit blank/skeptical

But I digress from the topic, that QUB link given above is a good summary of the reasons and their conclusion reasonable

"Looking at the recruiting figures, and taking into account the many possible reasons behind enlistment, it is impossible facilely or glibly to generalise about these fellows, about who they were or why they joined up. No single or simple explanation will do, and in many cases it must have been a combination of factors. Patriotic feeling might have been significant but not in itself sufficient to impel a man to enlist. Yet combine it with uncertain prospects at work and the urging of a next-door neighbour—‘Come on, John, it’ll be great crack’—and the lure might be irresistible. What, in any case, we can say about these men—who were both ‘ordinary’ and extraordinary at the same time— is that they became victims of circumstances well beyond their control."

Which maybe takes be back to why my family had to move to Belfast - "victims of circumstances well beyond their control."

[museumtom]

Having gone through the Irish newspapers of the time to me it was a time of peer pressure, little work and the fact that it was all happening 'over there'. Lads wanted to be 'over there' for a fun time before the war was over by Christmas. I have not seen any mention of religion being a factor. Ireland at that time was a diferent place than the one we see today. Remember the rebellion was not popular and we were ruled by the King and the Barracks gave a lot of employment to the populace and bought from the local. Take Tullamore and Birr for instance when a soldier or NCO or Officer was promoted it was in the papers and everyone followed the goings on in the town with great interest.

One great comment I found written by a Wexford journalist who went over to the battlefields and asked on lad why he went. "Well" says he " I get good regular food, money, free clothes, great comraderie and lots of fun etc" " I worked for a farmer in Wexford for 20 years and in all that time he never once said to me " Stand aisy".

Regards.

Tom.

[west coast]

my opinion is that they just joined the fray like their counterparts in england scotland and wales for broadly the same reasons. if the words ethic cleansing are used here it should be said that there was traffic in both directions north and south, also it must be said that llyod george abandoned a number of loyalists ? to the south when the six counties were partitioned instead of the ulster nine. theres no doubt that the ireland as a whole gave a huge sacrafiece for its size and good on them all.

mike

[corisande]

Ireland at that time was a different place than the one we see today. Remember the rebellion was not popular and we were ruled by the King and the Barracks gave a lot of employment to the populace and bought from the local.

That's it Tom. History, as she has been written, tends to gloss over that.

The fact that the 1916 rebellion was not popular when it took place, has not really been properly written into Irish history.

And the fact that the British Government screwed up a post war solution to the "Irish problem" by the use of firing squads, is not fully accepted in British histories.

For the average working class bloke in Ireland in 1914, the reasons for joining up were probably the same as in the rest of the UK. Post Easter 1916, the situation changed, and recruiting dropped. And as you know conscription never came to Ireland.

[corisande]

I was re-reading the Irish Government page that archangel9 gave

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Taoiseach_..._World_War.html

Amazing how governments spend money. I note at the bottom of that page that it is available in Polish and Chinese.

I am not convinced that translations like that are worthwhile use of Irish taxpayers money :-)

[west coast]

i don`t think the irish rebellion will ever be written into history properly, because depending where you are you will get a slanted view. regarding the firing squads, what else could the british govt have done at that time. the men who were shot knew this at the outset.

[corisande]

Moving quickly on...and back to the OPs original question

There is no agreement on the total number of Irish soldiers who served in the British Army and Navy in the First World War. Professor Keith Jeffery gives a figure of 210,000. That figure is the sum of regulars in British Army at start of WW1(20000), plus reservists recalled (30000) plus volunteers during the war (135000), plus Irish who volunteered and served in non-Irish regiments. officers or the Royal Navy (Jeffrey appears to put them at 25000).

To put the numbers into some sort of context, Prof Jeffery links the 210,000 recruits to the total number of young men living in Ireland at the time. According to the 1911 census there were just over 700,000 men between the ages of 15 and 35 in Ireland. The great majority of the recruits fell between those ages. We can say, therefore, that between a quarter and a third of the available young men in Ireland joined up to serve in the First World War.

[west coast]

is there something the matter with my question. i think its quite civil and deserves a reply at least.

mike.

[inishowen]

Cathal,

This is a question that regularly comes up when talking about WW1 in Ireland. The thing to remember is that at the outset of the war the entire political and religious leadership in the south saw joining the war as 'the path of honour for all Irishmen' (John Redmond, Leader of the Irish Party in Westminster and undisputed political leader of nationalist Ireland). Also, that element of society who had been motivated enough to join the Irish Volunteers split hugely in favour of Redmond, 170,000 as against 12,000 or so who went with McNeil. Voices opposing the war were relatively few and far between.

While the pay and conditions offered by the army were far more attractive to young men than agricultural or even industrial employment at the time, and indeed the sense of adventure, I think we do a disservice to them by writing off their possible political motivations as somehow secondary, just as unionists joined for King and Country, nationalists joined to support the countrys struggle for Home Rule.

[west coast]

inishowen,

its my opinion that their motivations were in the main economic and social, no doubt there would have been the political minded. speaking of the south, there wasn`t many oppurtunities for work `specially in the dublin area and large towns , this was in the wake of the "great lock out" in `13. industry as a whole was stagnent for a long time. in my own family case my grandfather was a veteran from the earlier dublin militia [5th rdf] and boer war so it was just a case of more of the same for him, i`m sure there were hundreds like himself. [ my owen dad ww2] myself twenty years later. i think recruits join up today for broadly the same reasons as their grand and great grandads.

mike.

[Desmond7]

Sadly, I cannot remember the name of the Irish priest who held what can only be described as 'extreme' views on the British ... only a decade before he had lambasted Irishmen fighting in the British army against the Boers in South Africa.

By 1914 he had not truly changed his mind on the British BUT he had come to the conclusion that the German invasion of Belgium/devastation of Louvain etc justified his calling on Irishmen to JOIN the British army!

I think the poverty thing is overplayed in terms of the actual period of conflict (most certainly had huge influence in years before).

Des

[inishowen]

Hi Mike,

I didn't intend to dismiss the economic/financial motivations at all ( indeed I understand that one of the companies of the 7th Dubs were know as the 'Larkinites' as they were all union men who were blacklisted after the lockout and couldnt get their jobs back).

The reason I made the remarks above is that over the years I have brought many many fellow Irishmen to Belgium and France, and in particular for those who would regard themselves as republicans their first tentative steps towards even recognising that 'great uncle mick' or 'great uncle brendan' ever wore a British uniform, is to say something along the lines of ' of course, he only joined for a job, or the money, etc etc'.

I think its important to point out that political aspirations or alliegances were also a factor and those who joined up to fight for Home Rule were as plentiful as those who joined up to prevent it.

When I went to school there was one paragraph in our history book about the Irishmen who went off to the war and entire chapters on the 1916 rising, and reading that you would never have realised that the overwhelming aspiraton of nationalist Ireland at the time was for Home Rule within the British Empire, the notion of a republic was the preoccupation of only a tiny political fringe group at that time. So when their political and church leaders told them to join up to defend small nations this added to the mix as well as the whif of adventure ,7 shillings a week to jangle in your pocket, and a smart new uniform and decent set of boots.

[corisande]

I understand that one of the companies of the 7th Dubs were know as the 'Larkinites

I have come across the odd reference to this but nothing explicit.

It could not have been D Company who were quite the opposite to Larkinites

Do you have any more information on who the Larkinites were?

[Desmond7]

D company were the 'Toffs in the Old Toughs'?

Re the Larkin situation: see RTE's 'Our War' website epecially Niamh Puirseil's contribution - link below. Superb lecture.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_greatwar.xml

I actually thought most of those who joined army because of lock-out situation had done so pre-war?

[Chris_Baker]

One of the factors behind early enlistment in England, Scotland and Wales was the sudden increase in unemployment in August and September 1914. Export orders and business for non-essential goods dropped very quickly after the declaration of war; tens of thousands were laid off. I presume that this affected Ireland too, although for the most part it was a non-industrial economy. Could anyone comment on unemployment as a recruitment factor in Ireland?

[corisande]

Thanks for the links. I have listened to the Niamh Puirseil lecture. Take a while to get through them all!

D company were the 'Toffs in the Old Toughs'?

Yes that's why the Larkinites could not have been in D Coy. Almost 200 men enlisted en mass at Lansdowne Road (Ireland's Rugby home) , in D company of the 7th Battalion. Many were TCD graduates an undergraduates, plus assorted lawyers and other professionals. There is a book "Pals at Suvla Bay" which goes into a lot of detail on them

[corisande]

Could anyone comment on unemployment as a recruitment factor in Ireland?

Johnny Doyle's link in post 3 of this thread to Prof Jeffrey yields Jeffrey's thought on this question

The August 1914 rush to the colours was also boosted by the fact that across Ulster many factories laid men off, or put them on short time, when war broke out because of uncertainties in the economic situation. Irish linen mills specialised in the quality end of the market—fine table and bed-linen, high quality shirting and so on—just the sort of products which people might stop buying (as they did) because there ‘was a war on’. Export markets in continental Europe and the USA were disrupted. Thus, just at the moment when there was a stirring and insistent call for troops, many workers were put out of a job, evidently making enlistment more attractive than might otherwise have been the case.

[MichaelBully]

Interesting thread, and I have learnt a great deal from reading over the contributions. This might be a naive question, but did the sinking of 'The Lusitania' on 7th May 1915, encourage more Irishmen to volunteer?

[Desmond7]

I would love to see the ACTUAL figures for lay-offs in the relevant period of enlistment in Ulster which is actually not August 1914, but mid-September.

My town was built on linen mills and the surrounding district too .. Braidwater, Phoenix, Dinsmores, Old Bleach, Balnamore etc etc etc ... in all my research of the period and long, long hours reading everything from contemporary press reports of councils, industrial matters, court and general parish pump, I have yet to come across any reference to large scale lay-offs or part-time working at 'The Mill' having any major impact. And remember that within a short time these mills were soon working flat out on military contracts.

[corisande]

but did the sinking of 'The Lusitania' on 7th May 1915, encourage more Irishmen to volunteer?

Difficult to say, without having monthly figures, but on the 6 monthly ones which are readily available, the sinking does not seem to have helped to attract volunteers

Period Recruits

Aug 1914 –Feb 1915 50,107

Feb 1915- Aug 1915 25,235

Aug 1915 –Feb 1916 19,801

[johnny_doyle]

Interesting thread, and I have learnt a great deal from reading over the contributions. This might be a naive question, but did the sinking of 'The Lusitania' on 7th May 1915, encourage more Irishmen to volunteer?

There were recruitment posters created referring to the Lusitania and a life raft from the Lusitania was marched around Dublin accompanied by members of the Dublin Battn VTC as part of a recruitment drive. Don't know what impact they had though.