Thomas Frank Pratt Pvt9164 East Surrey 8th Battalion

[john crowner]

I would like to find out more about private Thomas Pratt, 9164 8th battalion East Surrey Reg, KIA 3.5.17 at Arras. Specifically if possible , when enlisted, and service record. Any other info,company etc would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help

[Verrico2009]

Basic details:-

Name: Thomas F Pratt

Regiment or Corps: Royal Sussex Regiment, East Surrey Regiment

Regimental Number: 9164, 28273

From CWGC:-

Name: PRATT, THOMAS FRANK

Initials: T F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: East Surrey Regiment

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Age: 20

Date of Death: 03/05/1917

Service No: 9164

Additional information: Son of Richard Pratt, of Bentley Farm, Halland, Sussex, and the late Ann Pratt.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 6.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

Very clear on the MIC that the short number goes with the Royal Sussex service, so a slight mix-up by CWGC, methinks.

In 1901 he was with his extended family:-

Richard Pratt 47

Ann Pratt 47

James Pratt 26

Peter Pratt 20

Mabel Pratt 16

Ebby Pratt 14

Annie R Pratt 11

Kate Pratt 9

Joseph Pratt 7

Thomas Pratt 4

Grace L Pratt 7 months

Harry C Day 25

George Witington 19

Eliza Card 78

Louisa Wickens 27

John Burfoot 15

Jesse Pratt 25

Home was Bentley Farm, Framfield, Uckfield.

[grantowi]

Birthplace: Framfield, Sussex. Enlisted: Chichester, Sussex

Grant

[john crowner]

Birthplace: Framfield, Sussex. Enlisted: Chichester, Sussex

Grant

Thanks for this, quite a large family! Can I find out when he enlisted ? or is this too much to ask?

[john crowner]

Basic details:-

Name: Thomas F Pratt

Regiment or Corps: Royal Sussex Regiment, East Surrey Regiment

Regimental Number: 9164, 28273

From CWGC:-

Name: PRATT, THOMAS FRANK

Initials: T F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: East Surrey Regiment

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Age: 20

Date of Death: 03/05/1917

Service No: 9164

Additional information: Son of Richard Pratt, of Bentley Farm, Halland, Sussex, and the late Ann Pratt.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 6.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

Very clear on the MIC that the short number goes with the Royal Sussex service, so a slight mix-up by CWGC, methinks.

In 1901 he was with his extended family:-

Richard Pratt 47

Ann Pratt 47

James Pratt 26

Peter Pratt 20

Mabel Pratt 16

Ebby Pratt 14

Annie R Pratt 11

Kate Pratt 9

Joseph Pratt 7

Thomas Pratt 4

Grace L Pratt 7 months

Harry C Day 25

George Witington 19

Eliza Card 78

Louisa Wickens 27

John Burfoot 15

Jesse Pratt 25

Home was Bentley Farm, Framfield, Uckfield.

Thank you for this info. So I should be looking at the Royal Sussex rather than East Surrey? On the memorial in Framfield he is Frank Thomas by the way. I wonder how often this happened

[shaymen]

War Diary here

http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES00819170503.pdf

Glyn

[KevinBattle]

It seems that Verrico has found something no one else has picked up on

Name: PRATT, THOMAS FRANK

Initials: T F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: East Surrey Regiment

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Age: 20

Date of Death: 03/05/1917

Service No: 9164

Additional information: Son of Richard Pratt, of Bentley Farm, Halland, Sussex, and the late Ann Pratt.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 6.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

Very clear on the MIC that the short number goes with the Royal Sussex service, so a slight mix-up by CWGC, methinks.

If that is correct, then are we looking at the right man or battalion?

The Royal Sussex lost 45 men from their 7th Battalion, most, if not all, commemorated on the Arras Memorial, the same as Thomas.

This man was also in the 7th Battalion and also died that day.... Now IF he was a relative, that might explain Thomas being in the same Battalion.

It would certainly need more clarification if the CWGC records are in error, but I thought the Next of Kin filled in the FVF form which the CWGC use for their records....

Name: PRATT, WILLIAM GEORGE

Initials: W G

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Sussex Regiment

Unit Text: 7th Bn.

Age: 34

Date of Death: 03/05/1917

Service No: G/4908

Additional information: Husband of Harriett Pratt, of East Ashling, C.hichester.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 6.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

One Royal Sussex man is buried in FEUCHY CHAPEL BRITISH CEMETERY, WANCOURT, of which the CWGC states:-

Wancourt was captured on 12 April 1917 after very heavy fighting, lost in March 1918, and retaken by the Canadian Corps on the following 26 August. The cemetery was begun by the VI Corps Burial Officer in May 1917, used at intervals until March 1918, and again in August and September 1918.

Perhaps others can clear up which Regiment Thomas was serving in when he was killed?

[kenf48]

If that is correct, then are we looking at the right man or battalion?

It would certainly need more clarification if the CWGC records are in error, but I thought the Next of Kin filled in the FVF form which the CWGC use for their records....

Soldiers Died in Great War also gives 9164 and I think the example of the FVF form shown on this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=142040 demonstrates the basic details were completed by the IWGC.

Incidentally George Knee G/9165 (kia 25/09/1917) was a L/Cpl in the 12th Bn of the East Sussex. There are notes on this Battalion on the LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/sussex.htm George's service record survives and shows he was attested in Hove on 11.12.1915. and went on the Reserve List the following day. He was posted to the 3rd (Reserve or Training) Bn at Chichester on 3 March 1916. This was probably the same intake as Pvt Pratt. Difficult to read but looks like Knee went to France on 5 January 1917 and alongside the signature is a rubber stamp for the "Adjt ?Bn Rl Surrey Regt "(could ? be 3rd Bn?).

If it is the 3rd Bn that would have been another Reserve or Depot Bn and he was posted again on 7 January infuriatingly this is even more difficult to read!.

The original overseas posting is to the BEF so he could have gone anywhere that needed replacements from the Base Depot.. I don't know how he got back into the Sussex before he was killed. The 12th Surrey were out of the line on 25/09/1917 so we can rule out another transcription error.

Of course, there is no reason to suppose his career followed the same path as Pvt. Pratt but it may give some clues, certainly as to the date of enlistment.

Ken

[Verrico2009]

Perhaps others can clear up which Regiment Thomas was serving in when he was killed?

The MIC definitely shows:-

R Suss R 9194

E Surr R 28273

I would therefore assume that the details at the top are the first service and the second row were later. Would that be normal? If I'm right, hopefully it's safe to assume that he was killed with the East Surrey and to that extent the details are correct. However, they seem to have picked up on his old Sussex number rather than the one which matched with his Surrey service. At least, that would be my assumption.

Unfortunately, haven't been able to track down any service records to provide any back-up.

[john crowner]

The MIC definitely shows:-

R Suss R 9194

E Surr R 28273

I would therefore assume that the details at the top are the first service and the second row were later. Would that be normal? If I'm right, hopefully it's safe to assume that he was killed with the East Surrey and to that extent the details are correct. However, they seem to have picked up on his old Sussex number rather than the one which matched with his Surrey service. At least, that would be my assumption.

Unfortunately, haven't been able to track down any service records to provide any back-up.

Thanks, but why or how would a man be transferred from one regiment to another?

[Paul Nixon]

George's service record survives and shows he attested in Hove on 11.12.1915...

Ken

The word "attested" is the key here. G/9164 and G/9165 were actually issued in late Feb or early March 1916 when the men were called up and posted to the Royal Sussex Regt depot. The December 1915 date suggests a Derby Scheme attestation.

28273 for the East Surrey Regt looks to date to around October 1916.

Paul

[kenf48]

Thanks, but why or how would a man be transferred from one regiment to another?

Have you looked at the LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/recruitment.htm ?

The simple answer is that initial volunteers in 1914 retained some County regimental association, as the existing Battalions were overwhelmed the Kitchener New Army was created, again some attempt was made to retain a local structure, i.e. 'the Pal's Battalions'. Once again this structure could not survive the numbers of replacements required due to casualties. As early as May 1915 the Army Act was amended to allow soldiers to be posted where they were required. The short lived Derby Scheme still allowed some element of choice but the Military Service Act dispensed with this altogether and every man between the age of 18 and 40 was deemed eligible for conscription and you went where you were put, or needed.

There are many examples (and recent threads on this forum) investigating whole drafts of one regiment being posted to another (from 30 soldiers and up). We could try and look at soldiers in the 28273 series and see if any others had previous Sussex affiliations, but it depends how much time you want to spend.

Similarly a wounded (or sick) soldier might be taken off the strength of his battalion and when recovered they would be sent to one of the base depots in France (e.g. Etaples,Rouen) and would be posted to units that had been recently mauled. 'Tommy' by Richard Holmes gives a number of examples including men wanting to join their relatives. (In my case I have two brothers who joined the South Wales Borderers together and then one later went to the Cyclist Corps I have no idea why, did they make a pact to split up to try and increase the chance of survival? There were literally millions of men going backwards and forwards and rotating through various units. Some men served in as many as four different regiments and that doesn't always include those who transferred to specialist units such as the Machine Gun Corps.

For the absence of doubt I was trying to say that George Knee and Pvt. Pratt were allocated their numbers on 3rd March 1916 at the Depot in Chichester but we can't draw any further parallels as to their subsequent careers unless we can demonstrate Knee was part of a larger draft. The 8th Bn of the East Surreys does not seem to list any drafts in the war diary (although it does mention new officers) but it was out of the line in both October 1916 (part) and January 1917. We could try and look at soldiers in the 28273 series for the East Surreys and see if any had previous Sussex affiliations. There are other avenues but it all takes time and at the end of the day we can still only make an educated guess.

Ken

[kenf48]

A quick reverse Pvt 28271 Alick Mills 8th Bn East Surrey from Haywards Heath Sussex died on 4 May 1917 and is in Bucquoy Road Cemetery Ficheux which is associated with the VII Corps Main Dressing Station at the Battle of Arras, so he probably died of wounds received the previous day.

He was 8332 of the Royal Sussex so probably joined as part of the same draft as Pvt. Pratt. Unfortunately A*****try is really playing up tonight (playing up as in 'your Family Tree is safe but unavailable' - gulp) so haven't gone beyond his mic.

I would suggest that just about clinches it, and as originally suggested a slight mix up at CWGC

Ken

edit now found a 28214 also from the Sussex so that's a draft of at least 59 and thats only from those who died on the 3rd May. There are also in the 28* series soldiers from both the Essex and Middx Regts.

e.g 28299 = formerly Middx

I feel a spreadsheet coming on...

[Guest ctpellett]

Press report 29th July 1917: Halland soldier missing. Mr & Mrs R. Pratt of Bentley Farm, Halland, have just learned that their youngest son Private T Pratt, of the Surrey regiment, has been missing since May 5th. He joined up on March 1st 1915 and although he had seen nearly two years service in France he had not previously met with mishap. His father is a prominent farmer in the Uckfield district, and is a member of the Framfield Parish Council.

in the book Remember Them Well, compiled by Jane Seabrook, T Pratt is listed as

T Pratt, Private, 9164, 8th Bn. East Surrey Regiment, died Thursday 3rd May 1917, aged 20, Arras Memorial Pas de Calais, France, Grave or Reference Panel No: Bay 6.

There was a second press report the following week with a little more information:

...3rd May the battalion had to withdraw from ground they had gained in battle, leaving behind all wounded who were presumed to have been taken prisoner. It was thought that Private Pratt had been wounded in the leg, and therefore unable to escape capture.

My obscure but immediate interest is whether December 1915 has any significance to Private Pratt's military record.

Respect and kind regards

Chris Pellett

[Jim Hastings]

I compiled a presentation of all the parish fallen for the Framfield Show last year, if you PM me I have a photo of him. Regards Jim

[Jim Hastings]

Email sent Chris, hope useful

[Guest TA Mardon]

Hi there

 

Hope you are able to help me as well.

 

My 2nd great grandfather Joseph Walter Pratt who died in WW1 (August 1918) was part of the Sussex Battalion, I wonder if he is related to the above Private Pratt?

 

If anyone could shed some light on my relative would be very helpful!

 

Thanks in advance

 

Toni-Ann

[KevinBattle]

Well, this would seem to be him in CWGC records, but his first Names not given

PRATT, J W. Rank: Private. Service No: G/19865. Date of Death: 08/08/1918. Age: 34.
Regiment/Service: Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: IV. C. 4. Cemetery: VILLERS-BRETONNEUX MILITARY CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of Joseph and Fanny Pratt, of Canvey Island, Essex; husband of Susie Winifred Pratt, of 13A, Midmoor Rd., Balham, London.

Initially buried along with other men at Map 62D I (or1?) 30.a.8.6. he was re-buried in V-B in July 1919.
Headstone inscription "For Ever in our Memory Dear" S W Pratt, Balham suggests he had young children as well as a widow - well, you are proof!!

Men buried near are noted as Killed in Action; for Joseph it simply states "Died".

 

That often implies dying from accident or sickness, but the concentration from Dury Hospital took place after 1925 according to CWGC, so may have been from one of the several other cemeteries nearby.

 

Villers-Bretonneux became famous in 1918, when the German advance on Amiens ended in the capture of the village by their tanks and infantry on 23 April. On the following day, the 4th and 5th Australian Divisions, with units of the 8th and 18th Divisions, recaptured the whole of the village and on 8 August 1918, the 2nd and 5th Australian Divisions advanced from its eastern outskirts in the Battle of Amiens. 

 

Hopefully, you'll find a closer Sussex connection than just the Regiment.

(He's NOT included on the WW1 Canvey Island War Memorial.)

[Martin Lepley]

On ‎14‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 13:35, TA Mardon said:

Hi there

 

Hope you are able to help me as well.

 

My 2nd great grandfather Joseph Walter Pratt who died in WW1 (August 1918) was part of the Sussex Battalion, I wonder if he is related to the above Private Pratt?

 

If anyone could shed some light on my relative would be very helpful!

 

Thanks in advance

 

Toni-Ann

 

Died 8th August 1918, Part of the 7th Bn Sussex Reg G/19865.

Previously in 12Bn and 8thBn of the Sussex Reg.

 

Died of wounds

 

If you want to know more, get in touch

 

[KevinBattle]

Martin: Toni-Ann only made that one post and presumably the info given was all she needed as she hasn't been back on the Forum since 14 December 2016.

With only one post, she won't get Private Messages either, so the only chance is to either locate her yourself (facebook etc) or request the Admin Team if they have any contact info they can use to pass your message on.

If you have Family Tree info, that sometimes is a way to contact other relatives.