Peter Doyle Posted 24 February , 2010 Share Posted 24 February , 2010 Tank Corps. V. interesting! What was the rank of the wearer, any idea? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 24 February , 2010 Share Posted 24 February , 2010 Hi as a comparison here are two canadian machine gunners I can't tell if the buttons have canada below the guns or not close up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 24 February , 2010 Share Posted 24 February , 2010 Peter, yes, he was 40187 Sgt Harold O Stone. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 24 February , 2010 Share Posted 24 February , 2010 Tank Corps with Machine Gun Corps buttons. Sgt 77527 Alfred R Jones. Close up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 24 February , 2010 Share Posted 24 February , 2010 Tank Corps with GS buttons. 95767 Pte James G Bulger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 Superb pictures. A couple of observations.. The only 'MGC' buttons worn by Canadians look exactly the same as British ones - they did not vary as the cap badges did. Only definitive answer is a Canadian maker - (not in itself utterly conclusive, Canadians wore British made buttons) bit hard to tell from a photo from the front! 'Tank Corps with MGC buttons' - any hints from the shoulder titles? Makes me think more that he may be pre-July 17 Heavy Branch. He also seems to have something above the stripes on his right arm.. a crown? And I'm sure the TC experts could tell us which battalion Pte Bulger was from the two-tone band on the shoulder strap (unless you know!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 25 February , 2010 Share Posted 25 February , 2010 Attached is a Canadian Machine Gun Corps button which according to "Buttons of the Canadian Militia Army Naval and Air Forces 1900-1990", by Eric Smylie, is the pattern for 1915-1929. The same source gives the use of the British MGC button for the CMGC from 1929 until 1936 when they were amalgamated into selected regiments. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 26 February , 2010 Share Posted 26 February , 2010 Attached is a Canadian Machine Gun Corps button which according to "Buttons of the Canadian Militia Army Naval and Air Forces 1900-1990", by Eric Smylie, is the pattern for 1915-1929. The same source gives the use of the British MGC button for the CMGC from 1929 until 1936 when they were amalgamated into selected regiments. David. Oops! Must admit I thought that one was post-war. Fair enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 1 March , 2010 I said I would do a summary, primarily infantry .... please kick it around. GS buttons in gilding metal the norm for infantry of the Line, the exceptions being usually but not exclusively Senior NCOs. Regimental versions noted in at least one battalion of the following: Royal Scots, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Border Regt, Notts & Derbys, KOYLI, Ox and Bucks, Welsh, HLI. Most 'Rifles' including TF battalions had black buttons of regimental design for all ranks, but not all, and not always. 6th DLI had black buttons. Foot Guards usually had regimental pattern buttons. Exceptions have been noted, and even 'mixed' buttons on one garment. MGC had regimental buttons, but not universally during the war period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 1 March , 2010 Share Posted 1 March , 2010 84 posts summed up in 6 sentences - well done that man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 1 March , 2010 Share Posted 1 March , 2010 Grumpy I would agree with your write up except for the guards attached scans will confuse the issue a bit 1 Grenadier with regimental buttons 2 Pioneer from 4th Coldstream with GS buttons 3 Scots Guardsman with a combination top looks to be regimental second one down definitely GS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 1 March , 2010 Share Posted 1 March , 2010 Coldstream Close up of 4th Coldsteam buttons Now for the Scots Guardsman Close up of Scots Guardsmans buttons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 March , 2010 Author Share Posted 2 March , 2010 OK! "Guards usually had buttons peculiar to their regiment".! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 2 March , 2010 Share Posted 2 March , 2010 I said I would do a summary, primarily infantry .... please kick it around. GS buttons in gilding metal the norm for infantry of the Line, the exceptions being usually but not exclusively Senior NCOs. Regimental versions noted in at least one battalion of the following: Royal Scots, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Border Regt, Notts & Derbys, KOYLI, Ox and Bucks, Welsh, HLI. Most 'Rifles' including TF battalions had black buttons of regimental design for all ranks, but not all, and not always. 6th DLI had black buttons. Foot Guards usually had regimental pattern buttons. Exceptions have been noted, and even 'mixed' buttons on one garment. MGC had regimental buttons, but not universally during the war period. I would qualify this as follows: Rifle regiments usually changed their GS buttons to black horn buttons with strung bugle motif [photos show that they did not always]. Rifle battalions with a local affiliation often wore buttons of regimental design, usually black horn but sometimes metal. Foot Guards sometimes wore regimental pattern buttons. [in my experience both photos and surviving jackets show GS buttons more often than regimental ones.] I haven't specified ranks as I assume we're talking exclusively about ORs here. Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 2 March , 2010 Share Posted 2 March , 2010 Just my twopenneth... I'm not sure I would characterise bugle horn buttons as 'Regimental buttons' In a Rifles unit they are GS buttons. Whilst there was never 100% compliance, most seem to have conformed either willingly or in an example I quoted by unit peer pressure! There are Regimental Rifles buttons and some of these have been illustrated, Cameronians, London Regiment etc. I would certainly be happy to call these Regimental pattern ie a distinct and different design. It would appear to me from the photos posted, that a lot of the variation seems to date from earlier in the war with a large percentage of simplified jackets being shown. I think there is certainly a crossover from pre war TF custom, with TF units continuing to wear pre-war buttons, and from Kitcheners Army units. I think the thing to remember with the K units is that until they came under formal War Office control, many had considerable latitude in what they adopted as insignia. Several forum pals have posted the wierd and wonderful results. In some cases these freelance insignias endured for some time, some until the end of the war, but some like their wearers, did not survive. What is also clear from the photos is that the majority were worn by Sergeants and above, most certainly in Line Regiments. I think Grumpy has it right with 'the exceptions being usually but not exclusively Senior NCOs' Kind regards Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mulcahy Posted 22 November , 2011 Share Posted 22 November , 2011 Many Thanks “Grumpy’ for bringing this thread to my attention. It is indeed a very useful source of information. I am looking for insights into the practices of The Royal Munster Fusiliers in relation to the wearing of regimental pattern buttons by O/Rs. My own photographic references are not good enough for me to discern anything useful. I have found the sealed pattern numbers for the Irish cavalry regiments and the Irish Guards buttons at the NA and as you would imagine no references at all for any regimental pattern buttons to the Irish line infantry. Can any forum members help me understand if O/Rs of the RMF wore regimental pattern buttons and what the procurement process was? I assume that the regiment provided them from regimental funds if they were provided at all. Do the PVCN’s provide any reference for the regiment? Finally if anyone is able and willing to provide the sealed pattern numbers for the GS buttons I would be grateful to receive same. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 23 December , 2011 Share Posted 23 December , 2011 Slightly off track but would I be right assuming most RA would have worn the crown above gun button as opposed to the GS button? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 24 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2011 Slightly off track but would I be right assuming most RA would have worn the crown above gun button as opposed to the GS button? TT Yes that is what "Dress of the RA" by Campbell says but we may have an expert what nose better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 March , 2012 Share Posted 11 March , 2012 Pals, On the subject of rifles buttons, here's something definitive on the KRRC's practice at least: [source: Plate k in The Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps - Appendix dealing with Uniform, Armament and Equipment by S.M.Milne & Maj-Gen Astley Terry, 1913] On page 32 of the same volume, it states .. "In 1881 regimental numbers were abolished, and consequently the '60' was eliminated from all clothing, badges, and buttons." This is not strictly true as I believe the central roundel of the crossbelt badge still had '60' inside the strung hunting horn in line with the general "Peninsula" badge used on KRRC publications etc. Then in a footnote to that sentence ... "The men's buttons now had a crown and bugle only, and can hardly be called regimental." ... which completely supports tocemma's comment higher up. Can anyone add detail on Rifle Brigade buttons pre- and post-1881? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 11 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2012 a valuable contribution, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merioneth Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Should anyone be interested, Buttons of the Regular Army 1855-2000, Howard Ripley, 2002 has Annexes taken from the Public Records Office at Kew listing 1871 approved patterns for all army units. Also includes 1915 Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries showing different sizes of buttons with reference numbers and specifying Brass, Gilding Metal, Horn etc. I believe he still has copies (he had the book privately printed as a paperback) and I would be happy to check availability with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 30 August , 2015 Share Posted 30 August , 2015 (edited) Lastly I'm assuming that some of the other TF rifles battalions - Leeds Rifles, Robin Hood Rifles, Isle of Wight Rifles etc. - probably also used rifles buttons, but as yet I've got nothing conclusive on that.Cheers, Mark Pal @Kitchener's Bugle has just posted this excellent image of the flying ace Capt. Albert Ball, VC wearing his Robin Hood's Rifles uniform with blackened rifles buttons clearly seen. Edit: The photo dates from his time as a 2/Lt. He was awarded his VC while attached to the RFC. Full details in Kitchener's Bugle's topic. The battalion's full title was 1/7th (Robin Hood) Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Regiment) See here Edited 31 August , 2015 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 31 August , 2015 Share Posted 31 August , 2015 The picture shows him as a 2nd Lt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 31 August , 2015 Share Posted 31 August , 2015 The picture shows him as a 2nd Lt. Yes it does, but also without a VC up! I toyed with the idea of covering that in the original post but decided it was pretty clear the photo predated both his promotion and his VC. However, I'll now edit it appropriately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 September , 2015 Share Posted 1 September , 2015 Yes it does, but also without a VC up! I toyed with the idea of covering that in the original post but decided it was pretty clear the photo predated both his promotion and his VC. However, I'll now edit it appropriately He seems to have completed his formal 'transfer' to the RFC before putting his VC ribbon up, as all subsequent photos show him in the maternity jacket, field cap and insignia of the RFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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