Recruitment by Regimental Areas Ireland

[Seamusmac]

Hi All,

Hitting a brick wall with research. I am looking for information relating to the OMAGH Regimental Area for the 1914-1917 period where a total of 8,200 men were recruited.

I am particularly looking to get a breakdown of recruits from the city of Londonderry and the different regiments they joined. I have a paper from 1987 on WWI recruitment in Ireland that says that "the recruitment authorities kept detailed lists of the response in each district. These lists are available at the Public Record Office in London and end in June 1917." A reference code of PRO(L) Nats 1-85 is given but when I spoke to PRO they could not help.

Any help would be much appreciated</SPAN></SPAN>

[rob elliott]

Seamusmac,

Wasn't aware of lists that are still available for earlier in the war, however although out of the time scale you seek there is a list from the Belfast telegraph of the 4th October 1918 listing recruits in the 2nd batch of that time for the Omagh district.

A few Derrymen listed, with addresses. The vast majority on this list going to the RAF.

Have you seen it on 'Eddies Extracts' webpage for the Presbyterian War Memorial Rolls.

Rob

[Seamusmac]

Hi Rob

Thanks a million for this - Eddie's Extracts listing is a big help - had figures for this but the regiments joined is exactly the info I need. My key area of research is identifying men joining the 6th RIR and the 7th/8th Skins as part of the 16th Irish, the key period being December 1914 - May 1915.

Like 1918, I have the overall figures but am trying to find what regiments they all joined - have tracked 400+ from Derry that enlisted in the 6th RIR through service records, medal rolls etc. but would love to hunt down the full breakdown for all regiments.

Thanks again

Seamus

[Graham Stewart]

Might be teaching Granny to suck eggs here, but is there an Irish equivalent of the Absent Voters Lists? I realise these actually show the unit at the time of voting, but our AVL's here are a brilliant source for that sort of thing.

[bootneck]

According to the online TNA catalogue NATS 1/85 is Parliamentary Questions S-Z, 1917-1919. Was this where the information came from?

I must admit that (L) in PRO(L) haD me baffled, but I now see it means London.

regards

Bootneck

[rob elliott]

Graham,

I have 95% of the Londonderry AVL, the one thing i have found from it is how many of the men from the City were not in either the 6th Royal Irish Regiment or the 10th royal Inniskilling Fusiliers which are the City's Nationalit and Unionist battalions.

They appear to have had a similar number of men, around 5-700 each.

I think total volunteers from Londonderry could be as high as 7000 based on the % casulties on the war memorial.

Also regarding the AVL the districts that are now incorporated in the City boundry were not in it, so it is necessary to look at the County returns too. I have the North of the County.

Unfortunately i don't have the time to do a detailed breakdown of the men into regiments at the moment, but it is something i

wanted to do in the longterm.

I am, slowly, going through the members of the Ulster Volunteer Force from the city who served in the 10th Inniskillings.

Seamus, there is another Forum member, Conor, from Derry who researches the 6th RIR.

I have a friend fom the City who's grandfather was in it too, name of Pte Patrick Henderson.

Rob

[Ally Sloper]

It sounds like you need to look at the Regimental District Recruitment Registers, but unfortunately only the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry and the East Surrey Regiment's registers are known to have survived.

The local Omagh newspaper might give you some idea of who joined what regiment, either mentioning them enlisting (usually in September or October 1914) or those who had become casualties. A local record office near Omagh might also be of help to you further.

Ally

[Seamusmac]

Many Thanks Graham, was not aware of the Absent Voters List but will certainly check it out.

[Seamusmac]

According to the online TNA catalogue NATS 1/85 is Parliamentary Questions S-Z, 1917-1919. Was this where the information came from?

I must admit that (L) in PRO(L) haD me baffled, but I now see it means London.

regards

Bootneck

Thanks Bootneck,

That's the reply I got from PRO in Kew - that NATS 1/85 was a Parliamantary Question but wouldn't give me more detail - said I would need to call over or use a research officer, but they still wouldn't tell me the nature of the Question - I can only presume if refers to the breakdown (nationalist/unionist) of Irish recruits which was a regular discussion in Parliament.

For all your information, the references come from an excellent 1987 article in the Irish Sword (no.66) by Patrick Callan entitled "Recruiting for the British Army in Ireland during the First World War." It is Callan that says "the recruitment authorities kept detailed lists of the response in each district. These lists are available at the Public Record Office in London and end in June 1917."

[Seamusmac]

Graham,

I have 95% of the Londonderry AVL, the one thing i have found from it is how many of the men from the City were not in either the 6th Royal Irish Regiment or the 10th royal Inniskilling Fusiliers which are the City's Nationalit and Unionist battalions.

They appear to have had a similar number of men, around 5-700 each.

I think total volunteers from Londonderry could be as high as 7000 based on the % casulties on the war memorial.

Also regarding the AVL the districts that are now incorporated in the City boundry were not in it, so it is necessary to look at the County returns too. I have the North of the County.

Unfortunately i don't have the time to do a detailed breakdown of the men into regiments at the moment, but it is something i

wanted to do in the longterm.

I am, slowly, going through the members of the Ulster Volunteer Force from the city who served in the 10th Inniskillings.

Seamus, there is another Forum member, Conor, from Derry who researches the 6th RIR.

I have a friend fom the City who's grandfather was in it too, name of Pte Patrick Henderson.

Rob

Hi Rob,

Thanks for this - where can I get access to the AVL figures?

I see where you're getting the 7000 estimate working up from the war memorial records - would this be due to higher than average casualty rates due to Festubert (2nd Skins), Somme (Skins in the 16th Ulster), Hulluch (7th Skins), Guillemont/Ginchy etc. I'm working on figures of 4-5000 but issue is where to draw the boundary due to changing city limits and close ties with East Donegal, Inishowen and West Tyrone. The overall recruitment figure for the Omagh RA up to Depot Period 6 (Aug 1917) was 8,200 where one could estimate that more than 50% of these came from Derry City (higher recruitment in urban areas than rural).

I would agree with your estimates for the the 6th RIR and the 10th Skins - 5-700 appears a pretty good estimate. I've managed to track dwon roughly 400 to the 6th Irish but gaps in the service numbers could easily put them up towards the 6-700 mark. This is ultimatley what I want to get to but in doing so could get a good breakdown for other regiments.

Whilst much is made of the 16th Irish and the 36th Ulster, it becomes very clear that many more served in other regiments, particularly the 1st and 2nd Skins, which is rarely mentioned.

I've come across Conor and posted him recently - it would be interesting to compare notes.

How's your research going on the 10th Skins?

[Seamusmac]

It sounds like you need to look at the Regimental District Recruitment Registers, but unfortunately only the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry and the East Surrey Regiment's registers are known to have survived.

The local Omagh newspaper might give you some idea of who joined what regiment, either mentioning them enlisting (usually in September or October 1914) or those who had become casualties. A local record office near Omagh might also be of help to you further.

Ally

Thanks for this Ally - what happened to the records - were they burnt in the bomb attack during WWII?

This would reinforce the fact that the information may be held in the Parliamentary Question (NATS 1/85).

I've tried the Records Office in Belfast - no joy!

[rob elliott]

Seamus,

i got a copy of the AVL [as i say not complete] some years ago. I asked in Foyle St Library if they had a copy, so i could look at the missing pages, the libraries are generally where they are kept. they hadn't a clue what i was talking about, but i think this was possibly more to do with the staff not being aware of what they have. This is often a problem as it stops you dead because they won't look for it.

they are usully kept with the election registers for the other years.

There was a 1918 one and a 1919 one, although the latter has very little in it.

I do have the AVL for the North of the County too, this covers the City edges, what they used to call the Upper and lower Liberties.

Regarding my figures for soldiers that served from Londonderry, its based on the estimated true return for the City of around 900-1000 rather than the 756 that are on the memorial.

Not sure if you are aware but the there are letters in the Harbour museum of names rejected, not all but gives you an idea. Its an old file stuffed with papers. have you seen the memorial records?

The casualty rate for England, Scotland and Wales [this is off the top of my head without my notes] works out about 12.5% killed to those served [it is similar for all three countries].

Assuming that Ireland was the same[ no evidence otherwise] then even the 756 number would equate to the 7-8000. So being conservative the figure may be light.

The worst day for the City was 1st July 1916, when i think 126 men were killed.

If you use the 12.5 % figure against a reduced Ireland memorial roll figure of about 30,000 instead of the 35000 listed [as some may be English/Scottish serving in irish regiments, although many Irishmen are not listed] then the figure of men from Ireland that served could have been higher than those currently used.

If however the figure of those that served from Ireland is correct, approx 230,000 then the % casualty rate is possibly higher than the three other home countries. This would seem odd, as although Irish regiments seemed to be involved in most major battles it would be no greater than the Scots.

My own research is very slow now. A couple of years ago had an intense period of research on the 10th Inniskilings doing the data base for gardiner Mitchell's book that came out about 18 moths ago, but i want to expand this.

I also do some free 1st war research for Londonderry families in conjunction with Trevor Temple. Got a couple to do at the moment.

Did you get the book 'Remembering' about the Derry families?

There was a lady on the forum that had a list of men of the 6th RIR who were wounded at the Guilmont/Guinchy battle, listing the places they came from. There were a number of Derrymen.

Do you use the Journal/Sentinal copies in Foyle St Library.

Rob

[Seamusmac]

Seamus,

i got a copy of the AVL [as i say not complete] some years ago. I asked in Foyle St Library if they had a copy, so i could look at the missing pages, the libraries are generally where they are kept. they hadn't a clue what i was talking about, but i think this was possibly more to do with the staff not being aware of what they have. This is often a problem as it stops you dead because they won't look for it.

they are usully kept with the election registers for the other years.

There was a 1918 one and a 1919 one, although the latter has very little in it.

I do have the AVL for the North of the County too, this covers the City edges, what they used to call the Upper and lower Liberties.

Regarding my figures for soldiers that served from Londonderry, its based on the estimated true return for the City of around 900-1000 rather than the 756 that are on the memorial.

Not sure if you are aware but the there are letters in the Harbour museum of names rejected, not all but gives you an idea. Its an old file stuffed with papers. have you seen the memorial records?

The casualty rate for England, Scotland and Wales [this is off the top of my head without my notes] works out about 12.5% killed to those served [it is similar for all three countries].

Assuming that Ireland was the same[ no evidence otherwise] then even the 756 number would equate to the 7-8000. So being conservative the figure may be light.

The worst day for the City was 1st July 1916, when i think 126 men were killed.

If you use the 12.5 % figure against a reduced Ireland memorial roll figure of about 30,000 instead of the 35000 listed [as some may be English/Scottish serving in irish regiments, although many Irishmen are not listed] then the figure of men from Ireland that served could have been higher than those currently used.

If however the figure of those that served from Ireland is correct, approx 230,000 then the % casualty rate is possibly higher than the three other home countries. This would seem odd, as although Irish regiments seemed to be involved in most major battles it would be no greater than the Scots.

My own research is very slow now. A couple of years ago had an intense period of research on the 10th Inniskilings doing the data base for gardiner Mitchell's book that came out about 18 moths ago, but i want to expand this.

I also do some free 1st war research for Londonderry families in conjunction with Trevor Temple. Got a couple to do at the moment.

Did you get the book 'Remembering' about the Derry families?

There was a lady on the forum that had a list of men of the 6th RIR who were wounded at the Guilmont/Guinchy battle, listing the places they came from. There were a number of Derrymen.

Do you use the Journal/Sentinal copies in Foyle St Library.

Rob

Thanks a million re: the AVLs - you're right about the library not knowing what they have!

I guessed you were using the 1 in 8 ratio for the overall recruitment figures - massive considering the city population at the time was only about 45000.

I have the "Remembering" Book - pretty good as is the Gardiner Mitchell book. It's funny ye know as I have an account of the local guys from the 6th Royal Irish giving "three cheers for the Derrys" before going over the top. Congratulations on the good work done on the book.

I've researched the Journal from about late 1913 to 1919 but coverage can be very scant, particularly after the first year of the war, hence you tend to get more coveragge/letters from the guys in the regular battalions. I've covered parts of the Sentinel but time is my main issue. I've done extensive book research, war diaries, academic journals and other snippets (too much at times) but really want to work on concrete facts and figures relevant to the North West.

I must follow up on the Guillemont/Ginchy list.

Great chatting to you and thanks again

[rob elliott]

Seamus,

Do you use 'Ancestry'. I use a word search for men in the service records, Londonderry, Derry, Rosemount, Waterside aazing just how many records survived.

I did a very quick list of men up and around rosemount, where my family are originally from. Came up with a number of 6th RIR guys.

Did you hear about the war memorial in the grounds of the catholic Church on the waterside. Was a piece in the Sentinal by Trevor Temple last year.

I don't know about the Journal but the Sentinel had lots of articles on the annivarsaries in the years after the war.

Also the 'in memorium' pages of the papers are quite useful.

Rob

[Seamusmac]

Seamus,

Do you use 'Ancestry'. I use a word search for men in the service records, Londonderry, Derry, Rosemount, Waterside aazing just how many records survived.

I did a very quick list of men up and around rosemount, where my family are originally from. Came up with a number of 6th RIR guys.

Did you hear about the war memorial in the grounds of the catholic Church on the waterside. Was a piece in the Sentinal by Trevor Temple last year.

I don't know about the Journal but the Sentinel had lots of articles on the annivarsaries in the years after the war.

Also the 'in memorium' pages of the papers are quite useful.

Rob

Hi Rob

I've been using all the sources you've quoted above - i find the Ancestry service records to be invaluable. I was aware of the Waterside church grotto (have the original article on it) and have visited to see if there was a plaque (unfortunately not).

I was looking at the Sentinel from 1st July 1926 to see how the 10th anniversary was commemorated. Info is very scant apart from memorials and a very short feature saying that numbers attending were on the decline. I did find an interesting article showing that 619 ex-servicemen were on the live unemployment register, of which 162 were disabled. Good detail in Sentinel on te 50th anniversary in 1966.

On this, did you ever hear if Gwynn's Institution in Brooke Park was ever used as a "training centre" for ex-servicemen. Heard it from a cousin whose father was an ex-WWII serviceman but can't find out when or if this was the case.

Have been following up with Central Library about the AVL - they're coming up blank at present but I'm keeping at them.

Regards

Seamus

[rob elliott]

Seamus,

Had a thought, do you have your 6th Royal Irish men on a list or data base.

Wouldn't be a quick turn around as at present i'm a bit busy with work but if you can get me a list of names with numbers i can run through the AVL to put addresses and any other info against them, also pick up any strays there may be.

As i say don't mind doing it but it will take me a few weeks.

Never heard of the Gwynn thing but know a man that may, i will ask him.

When my father was alive he may have known something, he lived in Lewis St Rosemount.

Gate to Brooke Park at the end of the street went straight across to the institute.

Dad was in the RAF in the war.

I have a list of the City men killed in the 2nd war and the names and addresses of the families who attended a service in Brooke Park.

Rob

[Seamusmac]

Seamus,

Had a thought, do you have your 6th Royal Irish men on a list or data base.

Wouldn't be a quick turn around as at present i'm a bit busy with work but if you can get me a list of names with numbers i can run through the AVL to put addresses and any other info against them, also pick up any strays there may be.

As i say don't mind doing it but it will take me a few weeks.

Never heard of the Gwynn thing but know a man that may, i will ask him.

When my father was alive he may have known something, he lived in Lewis St Rosemount.

Gate to Brooke Park at the end of the street went straight across to the institute.

Dad was in the RAF in the war.

I have a list of the City men killed in the 2nd war and the names and addresses of the families who attended a service in Brooke Park.

Rob

Hi Rob

Interesting to hear your dad was in the RAF - that's what started my interest in this research. My dad had mentioned once that his dad served in the RFC/RAF during or just after WWI. Couldn't trace this but I found out that he did sign up to Royal Irish Rifles in 1916 but was too young. His brother was discharged from the Royal Irish Regiment for same reason. I also had two uncles (mum and dad's side) that served in WWII (one survived, other killed in D-Day landings) and had another uncle that served in Korea - all from "nationalist" backgrounds. I'm sure there are others but none of these were ever mentioned - I only think they were ever mentioned to me as I was an avid 1970s war comic reader (Warlord, Battle, Commando etc. - catching up on a lost youth - must be mid-age setting in)

Many thanks for the offer to check out my list - I've been on to the library non-stop but still drawing blanks. I've tried to upload a pdf of the excel spreadsheet but it exceeds the 100k limit. will try to work something out. If i ever manage to get the lists off the library I'll do the breakdown of regiments and areas and pass them on.

Thanks again

Seamus

[Seamusmac]

Hi Rob

I'm back. Couldn't get a list formatted in such a way that I could upload - all too big. I've pasted 50 enlistments that I'm pretty certain were enlisted in L'Derry in Dec '14/jan '15 (have another 350). I'd be delighted to see what additional info or additional names you may have on the AVL.

As you can see I have noted the dates of those that were killed so it would be interesting to see how many of the others had signed up to the AVL by 1918.

Thanks again,

Seamus

Name Regt No

Bradley, Hugh 2298 09-May-16

Cairns, John 2299 09-Sep-16

Canning, john james 2301 31-Dec-14

Cochrane, John 2302

Connor, Neal 2303

Campbell, John 2305

Carton, James 2307 27-Oct-17

Rayhill, Andrew ???? 2311

Doherty, George 2312 09-Sep-16

Doherty, Henry 2313

Doherty, Patrick 2314

Rafferty, Joseph 2315

Doyle, Frederick 2316

Diver, john james 2317 21-Aug-16

Feely, John 2318

Gallagher, James 2320

Gowan, Frank 2321

Hillen, James 2322

Hagan, Peter 2323 03-May-16

Kerrigan, John 2327

Lynch, John 2330 03-Sep-16

Lafferty, James 2331 09-Sep-16

McLaughlin, David 2332

McGlynn, Thomas 2333

McAleney, Charles 2334 12/08/17

McCallion, George 2335

McMonagle, Bernard 2338

McCafferty, Edward 2339

McAdams, Frank 2340

McCann, Michael 2342

Moore, William 2344

Martin, James 2345 11-Aug-16

Nicell, John 2346

Ramsay, Samuel 2348

Leonard, Patrick 2349

McDonagh, Patrick J 2351 10-May-16

McLoughlin, Louis A 2353

Finnegan, Michael 2354

Durkin, Patrick 2355

Dalton, Michael 2356

Toms, Harold R 2357

Boyle, George 2362

Brown, Patrick 2363

Begley, Patrick 2364

Bradley, Patrick 2367

Boyle, Daniel 2369

Begley, John 2370

Brown, Robert J 2371 03-Sep-16

Burns, Francis 2372

Campbell, daniel 2375 11-May-16

[rob elliott]

Seamus,

apologies, been away from here for a couple of weeks, but will start going through list. Those killed before late 1917 will not be on the AVL.

Rob

[Seamusmac]

Hi Rob

Just noticed your last post - haven't had the chance to go online for a while. Any help will do at this stage to enable me to get the momentum going again. I'm heading over to Messines next week so I'm looking forward to doing a comprehensive tour of key sites.

Seamus

[rob elliott]

Seamus,

Do you have anything on a Richard Faulkner, from Bridge Street. No 2765 6th RIR, died of wounds 11/9/1916, France.

His service record is on-line at ancestry. Named on diamond memorial.

Had a brother George in the Highland Light Infantry.

Rob

[Seamusmac]

Hi Rob

I'm presuming you already have this info-

Faulkner, Private Richard, 2765

6th Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment (Irish Brigade).

Died 11/09/1916, Ginchy, where he received his fatal wounds .

Interred in Corbie Communal Cemetery Extension, Somme, France.

Brother of Margaret (Maggie) Faulkner, 34, Bridge Street, Derry.

He's also listed in the Medal Rolls and Soldiers Died in the Great War, but I don't have the details.

I've attached the first page of his service record but don't have the remainder.

[rob elliott]

Seamus,

Eventually got around to your list and was quite surprised with the result.

I started looking through the AVL for Londonderry City for the names you listed, but a name search was getting nowhere at all.

So decided to go through the whole list, as i have it [about 90-95% of total], just looking for 6th Royal Irish men.

Now the AVL covers the old City boundary which runs from roughly top of Glendermott Road, about Irish st traffic lights. Limavady Rd to about the Broomhill Hotel, to edge of Prehen, but not including, on the Waterside.

Then on cityside, all of town up to Rosemount, not including any of where the Creggan estate is now or Sherrifs Mountain.

Along the Strand to the area at the roundabout, by the old Swilly workshop.

All areas outside this were classed as North Londonderry County, which includes Enagh, Ardmore, Shantallow,Steelstown and Sherrifs mountain, the latter areas known as the upper and lower liberties.

In the City, off your list, i found -

James Gallagher [junior] 2320 - 3rd Btn, Pte, 31 Cottage Row.

Barney [as written] McMonagle, 2338, Sgt, Royal Irish regiment, 69 Nelson St.

Michael McCann [no number or Battalion], 11 Osborne St.

Patrick Brown 2363 12 quarry Lane [corrected to Quarry St].

searching for any 6th men i found these men identified as such -

Michael McAuley, 2908, Pte, 3 Alma Place.

[Had two brothers serving from same address, Hugh Columba Mcauley [no number] RAMC. Herbert McAuley No 1919 2/3 RAMC].

James McGeneghan, 2492, Pte, 259 Bishop St. [brother William Thomas Mcgeneghan 399838, Pte, Labour Corps 794 employment Co].

Thomas Lynch, 3494, [no rank given] 15 Hamilton St.

Thomas Gorman, 2429, Pte, 38 Fahan St.

Henry James Dunn, 2403, Sgt, 165 Fosters Terrace [Lecky Road] - discharged.

Mathew Doherty, 4/2405, Sgt, 21 Ivy Terrace.

in addition, two others listed as 7th Btn but having a 6 prefix on their numbers -

William Carlin, 6/2947, Pte, 3 Greshams Row.

Patrick Curran, 6/2948, Pte, 9 Gallaghers Square.

There was also one other man that may have been 6th but listed as 1st Btn. - Patrick Cavanagh 2378, 21 Bridge Street.

So twelve, possibly thirteen men from the 300 + or so that joined. Allowing for the additional men killed it would still seem low.

Had a very quick look at the North County AVL but only saw a couple more, but will have a better look.

Now if you look at the 10th Inniskillings which recruited a similar number from the City then the lists are full of them.

Can't think why so few would be listed. Many 5th and 6th inniskillings and other units represented by men from the same steets.

Regarding Richard Faulkner, yes the family already had all of his service papers, thanks.

Rob

[Seamusmac]

Hi Rob

Sorry for delay in coming back to you - was actually over in Messines, Thiepval and Ieper last week visiting battlefields - great time was had.

Re: the AVL, definitely surprising results as I'm sure we would have expected more. As you infer, the vast majority of recruits would have come from the old city limits as you described, so I wonder why they weren't registering for the election.

It's interesting you mention the 5th and 6th Skins - I wonder if there were many from the 7th and 8th which were part of the 16th Irish. I must chase up the library again on the lists. How many names are on the 2 lists you have for the City and North Londonderry? You've got me wondering about all this again - I've become really curious about uncovering this info.

Thanks again

[Patrick ODwyer]

Rob and Seamus

Have you come across any 14th or 20th Hussars in the AVL? or 5th Reserve Cavalry?

Charles McColgan from Derry was a regular soldier (and I have been sent something on him from the Derry Archivist) and a Seagrave (untraced in Derry - Scotland link) and one other are on the memorial in the Diamond. I wonder if there were others.

Anything you come across is of interest

Many thanks

Patrick