HolymoleyRE Posted 24 August , 2017 Share Posted 24 August , 2017 PaddyO, I tried searching on the date base of records held by MoD for men born before 1901. Nothing with that service number came up, have you got DoB as the were a fair few W Collins' Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 24 August , 2017 Share Posted 24 August , 2017 1 hour ago, HolymoleyRE said: PaddyO, I tried searching on the date base of records held by MoD for men born before 1901. Nothing with that service number came up, have you got DoB as the were a fair few W Collins' Andy Hi Andy, many thanks; his age given on re-enlistment in May 1919 gives his age as 26 8/12 which would make it October 1892? However on the 1901 census he is down as being 6 yrs old which would make it 1894 or 5? One of his brothers was discharged from the RIR when his true age was discovered though so he may have fibbed in 1909 when he first joined.. I have copies of his MIC and medal roll entries and also entry from the CRs attestation log which gives the family address in Tipperary Town (I understand the CRs were there 1908-1910?). Thanks again, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolymoleyRE Posted 24 August , 2017 Share Posted 24 August , 2017 A couple of W Collins come up with 1895 and 1894 YoB, but the service number doesn't match a post 1920 CR one. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 25 August , 2017 Share Posted 25 August , 2017 8 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said: A couple of W Collins come up with 1895 and 1894 YoB, but the service number doesn't match a post 1920 CR one. Andy How odd.. Thanks again for taking the time on this. The brothers have been proving difficult to nail down! I have from eldest Andrew (E Yorks pre-war discharged misconduct then RIR, RIF, RE), Edmond (RIR died 04/11/18), Michael (nothing so far; family legend has it he decided to leave home during the Anglo-Irish War as the house kept getting undue attention from Crown forces suspicious of his name and size; he was never heard of after this), Patrick (pre-war RGA discharged 1913 misconduct but can't find his war service), John (discharged RIR pre-war for false statement on age then RGA) to youngest William (CR discharged misconduct). Andrew and Edmond were 5th RIRegt and served in Gallipoli. Edmond contracted TB in Salonika and was discharged permanently unfit and eventually died at home - he is buried in St John's (famine cemetery) in Tipperary Town with a CWGC headstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 25 August , 2017 Share Posted 25 August , 2017 1 minute ago, PaddyO said: How odd.. Thanks again for taking the time on this. The brothers have been proving difficult to nail down! I have from eldest Andrew (E Yorks pre-war discharged misconduct then RIR, RIF, RE), Edmond (RIR died 04/11/18), Michael (nothing so far; family legend has it he decided to leave home during the Anglo-Irish War as the house kept getting undue attention from Crown forces suspicious of his name and size; he was never heard of after this), Patrick (pre-war RGA discharged 1913 misconduct but can't find his war service), John (discharged RIR pre-war for false statement on age then RGA) to youngest William (CR discharged misconduct). Andrew and Edmond were 5th RIRegt and served in Gallipoli. Edmond contracted TB in Salonika and was discharged permanently unfit and eventually died at home - he is buried in St John's (famine cemetery) in Tipperary Town with a CWGC headstone. P.S. My great great grandmother got a King's letter in 1915 commending the family for their war service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 25 August , 2017 Share Posted 25 August , 2017 10 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said: A couple of W Collins come up with 1895 and 1894 YoB, but the service number doesn't match a post 1920 CR one. Andy Hi Andy, Both numbers are recorded on the CR enlistment book entry which is online on the National Army Museum website under Irish Soldiers records; they have scanned the post war enlistment books from the five Irish regiments disbanded in 1922 and his number is consistent with and sequential to the other men on that page.. I wonder why his post war record is missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 25 August , 2017 Share Posted 25 August , 2017 I have seen comments that there was some "weeding" of records held by the Ministry of Defence, so not all survive. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 25 August , 2017 Share Posted 25 August , 2017 Hmm.. the plot thickens. Thanks Maureen. I notice on the back of his MIC there is reference to the Officer i/c records Cork forwarding lists of forfeiture of medals 31/01/1922 - I wonder if these lists still exist anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 28 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2017 (edited) Looks like his medals were re-issued in 1928. The MIC has BW & VM re-issued but no date. The medal roll has re-issued 25-10-28. Also has him attd S&T corps. ** **I copied the medal rolls of the Connaught Rangers in 2014 at TNA and these images are from those copies. I hope I am not breaching any forum rules by posting them here. John Edited 28 August , 2017 by archangel9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 29 August , 2017 Share Posted 29 August , 2017 Thanks John! The back of the MIC looks like he applied for them in 1925 but they weren't approved and as you say eventually they were in 1928 - suggests a round ten year embargo? Interestingly the first correspondence address which has been later struck through for the 1928 one is a ward in the Ministry of Pensions hospital in Orpington Kent (the former Canadian regts. hospital). The Supply and Transport attachment is interesting although I note his qualification date for the Mons star matches the 1st Bn and he got the clasp so presumably was with them but doing an S&T role rather than straight infantryman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 29 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 August , 2017 There is a William Collins on the 1911 census with the 1st Bn in India but probably not your man. Single, 25, Lance Corporal and born in London. The 1st Bn were also at the Delhi Durbar of 1911 and a number of officers and men were presented with medals, unfortunately not on that list either. I wonder was he in India by 1911 or have you found him elsewhere on the census? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 29 August , 2017 Share Posted 29 August , 2017 3 hours ago, archangel9 said: There is a William Collins on the 1911 census with the 1st Bn in India but probably not your man. Single, 25, Lance Corporal and born in London. The 1st Bn were also at the Delhi Durbar of 1911 and a number of officers and men were presented with medals, unfortunately not on that list either. I wonder was he in India by 1911 or have you found him elsewhere on the census? Hi thanks again; no that's not him. He was born in Tipperary Town, Co. Tipperary. Not found him on the '11 census yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 30 August , 2017 Share Posted 30 August , 2017 But I think I've found him on the 3Fold site via Ancestry in Army disciplinary records from September 1909 albeit without a corroborating service number: Tried 'In the Field' for being absent without leave he got 2 years hard labour! He's listed as Pte. W Collins 2nd Batt. Connaught Rangers (which I guess would make sense since he enlisted 1909 in Tipperary Barracks and the 2nd Bn were in Tipp until 1910 I understand). So a few months in and aged just 14 that must have been quite a baptism! He must have transferred into the 1st Bn between then and August 1914, sailing from India and arriving in France in September and presumably staying with them then through the war since the 1st Bn is the only one on his Medal Rolls? No mention of a discharge code e.g. class Z etc on the medal entries but the May 1919 attestation states his previous service as 9 years 317 days in CRs. Does anyone have a list of 2nd Bn CRs for the 1911 census? It seems likely he transferred to 1st Bn after his punishment was served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 30 August , 2017 Share Posted 30 August , 2017 I now learn that older brother John who served in the RGA similarly re-enlisted after the war and was also discharged for misconduct during this post war period of service and he too had his medals forfeited. This was in Nov 1920 and again they were restored in 1928. Apologies if I've gone off topic somewhat with all this - perhaps I should open a new topic.. thanks for all the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 31 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2017 21 hours ago, PaddyO said: Does anyone have a list of 2nd Bn CRs for the 1911 census? It seems likely he transferred to 1st Bn after his punishment was served. Unfortunately the census returns for the 2nd Bn in 1911 recorded initials only. This is them - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kildare/Kildare/Curragh_Military_Camp/567989/ There is only one match for W. C., 19 years old, single and from Tipperary (page 15) - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002583937/ John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 31 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2017 11 hours ago, PaddyO said: I now learn that older brother John who served in the RGA similarly re-enlisted after the war and was also discharged for misconduct during this post war period of service and he too had his medals forfeited. This was in Nov 1920 and again they were restored in 1928. Apologies if I've gone off topic somewhat with all this - perhaps I should open a new topic.. thanks for all the help. I seem to remember medals were sometimes forfeit on conviction of a civil offence. Perhaps the brothers were convicted together? Not sure what prison records survive or are available but might be worth a try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 31 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2017 See this thread - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 31 August , 2017 Share Posted 31 August , 2017 Many thanks John. Fascinating thread about the forfeitures. I suspect in this case following the 'rules' was not something this family coped well with (and that's not just the boys!). Thanks for the census return; I think this WC is my man despite being listed as 19 as I know he's lied about his date of birth which I now discover to be 18/01/95 making him 14 on enlistment and so only 16 in 1911. His re-enlistment record lists him as 28 in 1919 when he was in fact 24. I wonder why only initials were used? The eldest brother has popped up now in the 1901 census at Inkermann barracks with the RIR (despite attesting with the E Yorks later that year and declaring no previous military service) and there full surnames are given along with Christian name initial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 31 August , 2017 Share Posted 31 August , 2017 2 hours ago, PaddyO said: Many thanks John. Fascinating thread about the forfeitures. I suspect in this case following the 'rules' was not something this family coped well with (and that's not just the boys!). Thanks for the census return; I think this WC is my man despite being listed as 19 as I know he's lied about his date of birth which I now discover to be 18/01/95 making him 14 on enlistment and so only 16 in 1911. His re-enlistment record lists him as 28 in 1919 when he was in fact 24. I wonder why only initials were used? The eldest brother has popped up now in the 1901 census at Inkermann barracks with the RIR (despite attesting with the E Yorks later that year and declaring no previous military service) and there full surnames are given along with Christian name initial. Does William have a middle name ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 31 August , 2017 Share Posted 31 August , 2017 Hi Craig, no just William Collins. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyO Posted 15 November , 2017 Share Posted 15 November , 2017 I've found William Collins 9663 in a couple of medical records; the second one is interesting here since it has him admitted to a hospital ship in Bombay with Neurasthenia (condition commenced 01/09/1920, which suggests he was with the 1st Bn during the mutiny in July 1920) and is being transported to Southampton. I notice his MIC has the reference NW/9/2112 about the forfeiture which also appears on some known mutineers medal cards I've looked up who have similarly lost their medals. Does anyone recognise this reference or know what this refers to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick J. Clarke Posted 24 June , 2020 Share Posted 24 June , 2020 Looking for info on John Lynnott. Who is he and where was he born. It is a Mayo name. Also a Pte. James Gorman, who I understand he was born in Ardnaree, Ballina. Any info would be invaluable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 25 June , 2020 Share Posted 25 June , 2020 James Gorman is mentioned in this article regarding a planned Mutineers Memorial in Tubbercurry, Co. Sligo. https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/the-sligo-champion/20191105/282793538214431 Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 25 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2020 Pte. James Gorman. Connaught Rangers 5785. 32424. 7143936. BW & Victory Medals. Medals forfeited. Original Sentence: 7 years P.S. - 2 remitted. I don't have any details of a Ballina connection although Dave has shown a Sligo connection so just up the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 25 June , 2020 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2020 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3750031 Lynott, John P Corps Regiment No Rank Connaught Rangers 8397 Private Connaught Rangers 7144271 Private Connaught Rangers 35086 Private BW & Victory Medals. Medals forfeited. Not in any of the lists I have of mutineers imprisoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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