MC,MM groups

[ianw]

On 06/09/2010 at 21:43, Phil_B said:

But surely any medal group may have an interesting story, not just the odd unusual ones?

I certainly wouldn't dispute that Phil.

There is an interesting insight into the commissioned ranker situation in a thread in the "Fromelles" section which features the exploits of various ranker officers notably including Captain Charlie "The Ba***rd" Kingston's dubious exploits in the Australian Graves Service. Suffice it to say that a commission following a DCM and a MSM do not a gentleman make.

 

 

[(nzef)]

It comes down to the individuals interests and their reasons for collecting.

The age old question of collecting for collecting's sake, or collecting for investment.You mentioned you collect casualties, and you have outlined your reasons for doing so which I can understand, although it doesn't float my boat.

I collect Gallantry. I settled on this particular theme after a period of collecting anything NZEF. As my collecting knowledge increased, so did my interest in this particular area.

I'm sure i'll change direction many times. Human nature :-)

Cheers

[davidhughhill]

SDGW lists 15 men whith MC,MM combinations and one with DSO,MC and DCM .

Davie

[ghchurcher]

Davie what is the SDGW?

Chris Bates must have the answer to all these questions shortly !!

[auchonvillerssomme]

I have realised that in his first post MC is asking about trios I wonder what the ratio of MC, MM pairs to MC, MM trios would be?

[auchonvillerssomme]

Soldiers Died Great War (SDGW) lists those men of the UK who were killed or died during WW1 (and slightly after, it is quite accurate but there will be many who disagree). It doesn't include Commonwealth troops.

[ghchurcher]

Oh OK yes thanks, being stupid, I have hard copies of those to various units, bit slow today.

Is that result you found through a search on the CD version or is there an awards summary to casualties that I am unaware of ?

I guess if you apply pro-rata casualties at 1m against BWMs issued at circa 5.6M that should give circa 84 MC MMs - but it could be miles out as logic does not apply!

Playing the numbers game there were 2.8M 14+14/15 stars issued so roughly half the ww1 groups are trios and half pairs (or BWM with MercM TFWM or indeed single BWMs).

As the MM (and MC) was not institued until 1916, statistically there is equal probability that an MM will have a trio as a pair, however the pair receipients entitlement to a BWM without a star may run as late as one day before the end of the war, not leaving much time to earn an award, let alone two! This would suggest more should be with trios.

Just a matter of time until the book is out and all will be revealed (I hope).......

[Muerrisch]

I have been after a MC,MM 15 trio group for well a long time,and was wondering how many were issued during the course of the war.As the MM only came into being from March 1916 they are scarce as then the enlisted man had to get a commission and then win a MC Thanks MC

surely not: a Warrant Officer could win a MC, having already earned an MM.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I'm not sure which publication is being quoted in post 32, is it on this subject? I will be intrigued on how any publication on this subject can claim to be accurate, the LG is a nightmare to search for MM's in the normal course of research let alone cross referencing and confirming that an officer with an MC and MM does actually have those awards gazetted.

The accuracy of SDGW depends on whether the awards had been gazetted at the time and the accuracy full stop, plus they are only the dead of the army so not really a representative group.

Mick

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

....As an aside to this post it may be of interest to know that around 650 MM & ISM combinations were awarded {OMRS Journal 1991}

[ghchurcher]

The Star and BWM numbers are from the Medal Year book, but most references quote similar figures. The MC/MM number comes from the earlier post which states it came from the SDGW (which is why I was interested to know how he abstracted the figures) and the rest is just calculation pro-rata based on the total approx casualty figures. As you say, many factors may skew the figures. Only the grafted total will tell in due course.

I'm not sure which publication is being quoted in post 32, is it on this subject? I will be intrigued on how any publication on this subject can claim to be accurate, the LG is a nightmare to search for MM's in the normal course of research let alone cross referencing and confirming that an officer with an MC and MM does actually have those awards gazetted.

The accuracy of SDGW depends on whether the awards had been gazetted at the time and the accuracy full stop, plus they are only the dead of the army so not really a representative group.

Mick

[AnthonyStaunton]

surely not: a Warrant Officer could win a MC, having already earned an MM.

One of the 96 Australian MC MM recipients was a Warrant Officer

572 RSM Ernest Vernon Tuson

MM, 13th Bn, 27 Oct 1916, p. 10488

MID, 45th Bn, 04 Jan 1917, p. 256

MC, 45th Bn, 01 Jan 1918, p. 52

[davidhughhill]

The Star and BWM numbers are from the Medal Year book, but most references quote similar figures. The MC/MM number comes from the earlier post which states it came from the SDGW (which is why I was interested to know how he abstracted the figures) and the rest is just calculation pro-rata based on the total approx casualty figures. As you say, many factors may skew the figures. Only the grafted total will tell in due course.

I just entered MC,MM in the decorations awarded section in Officers died.

Davie

[(nzef)]

Recenty picked up this MC, MM group to a Kiwi. The first of this combination in the collection so I am very pleased.

Second Lieutenant W. S. Brown, Wellington Regiment, late Otago Regiment, NZEF.

The 14/15 Star & Victory are renamed, which is a shame, but still a great group.

M.C. London Gazette 8 March 1919 and citation published 4 October 1919:

For most conspicuous gallantry and skill. On 4th November, 1918, near Le Quesnoy, when an enemy machine gun threatened to check his platoon, he attacked the gun, capturing it and killing the crew. Again, near Villereau, he similarly overcame machine gun resistance. His work during the operation was most brilliant, and led in a great measure to the capture of several field guns.

M.M. London Gazette 6 April 1917. The original recommendation states:

At Flers on the 16th September, when the Germans had been driving along the trench captured by us and a block was being constructed. This man organised and led a small clearing party further along the trench to protect those working on the block. He displayed great resourcefulness and courage in leading this party, and afterwards resisting bombing attacks by the enemy.

William Symington Brown was born in Darjeeling, India, on 9 September 1894. A Clerk by occupation and living in Napier, he attested for the N.Z.E.F. at Trentham on 15 February 1915. Serving on the Western Front with the 2nd Battalion Otago Regiment he was awarded the Military Medal for his bravery in September 1916 and was wounded in action on 17 October 1917. He was commissioned a 2nd Lieutenant in the 2nd Battalion Wellington Regiment on 29 June 1918, was wounded in action on 2 October 1918 and awarded the Military Cross for his bravery in action on 4 November 1918. Struck off the strength on 5 August 1919; sold with copied service papers and gazette extract.

[27thBN]

surely not: a Warrant Officer could win a MC, having already earned an MM.

Yes True its was just a must be very scare to say the least

Cheers

[Nigel Marshall]

On 06/09/2010 at 20:28, davidhughhill said:

SDGW lists 15 men whith MC,MM combinations and one with DSO,MC and DCM .

Davie

The DSO, MC, DCM will be 2/Lt Edgar Kermode of the West Yorkshire Regiment, and therefore, you may add a bar to his MC.

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Droocoo]

My MC, MM group to 2/Lt S.E. Warburton 1/4th Yorks and Lancs with trio just to add to this thread. Taken POW, and group is under research at the moment. 

 

M.C. L.G. 22/6/1918

 

'For conspicuous gallantry  and devotion to duty. When in command of a raiding party, though wounded before reaching his objective, he continued to lead his men himself accounting for two of the enemy, and being the last to leave the position. He afforded all ranks a most gallant example, and the success of the raid was largely due to his careful reconnaissance prior to the raid and due to his coolness and good leadership during the operation.'

 

Additionally from the battalion history (Ypres, March 25, 1918).

 

'We were instructed that the enemy was to be annoyed as much as possible, and that efforts were to be made to secure identifications. A raid was promptly arranged and Lieutenant Warburton was selected to lead it......On March 25th, our raid took place. The scout officer laid tapes from the front line to within a few yards of the enemy post....punctually to the second the artillery opened out with whizz-bangs on the enemy machine gun post. The night was almost perilously moonlit, but the enemy was taken completely by surprise, and in a very few minutes our men returned  with four live Boche and two machine guns. They had also killed several Huns and damaged his machine-gun position considerably. Our total casualties for the raid were Lieutenant Warburton and seven men wounded. Not until the battalion was out of the line the next day did we learn thatLieutenant Warburton's servant, who had been watching the raid from the crater, was missing. It transpired that he attempted to follow Warburton, and had doubtless got lost and killed. (201189 Pte. Archie Stocks)'

 

M.M. L.G. 21/9/1916 , L/Sgt. 1/4 Yorks. & Lancs T.F. From the history (Somme, July 1916)

 

'The situation was of very great anxiety - the proximity of the enemy meant, on one hand, absolutely no rest, for anything could happen at a moment's notice: on the other hand, extreme difficulty in preparing any offensive action. Nevertheless the GOC  brigade arrived at Battalion H.Q. and informed the C.O. that an attack must be made during the night in order to secure a rough parallelogram of ground about fifty yards and one hundred and twenty. There was little time to arrange matters, artillery preparations were out of the question, and it was decided to carry out the attack by bombers only.

Our men had several insults to avenge, but from the first all the card's were in the enemy's hands - time, ground, the scarcity of our trained bombers. What bombers we had made their way down the communicating tranches at the end but found them full of wire, while the enemy bombed them from 'T' trenches at the side. it was impossible to get on, and our men had to return to the original line - once more with nothing but casualties to our precious bombers (six killed, thirty-six wounded, one missing) to show for their effort. Sergeant S.E. Warburton was later awarded the Military Medal in recognition of his personal gallantry during this attempt.'

 

There you have it; citations for both the MM and MC which is what makes it such a special group to me.

 

In terms of numbers, I know that these are the following MC combinations to the Yorks and Lancs:

 

CSM G. Imission MC, DCM, MM (4th Bn)
Lt. J. Eckersley MC, MM (4th Bn)
2-Lt. F.W. Redshaw MC, MM
Lt. S.E. Warburton MC, MM (4th Bn)

 

There were 592 MC/MM combinations during the Great War (which includes DCM, VC, DSO combinations too)

 

Kindest Regards,

 

Andrew

[David_Underdown]

Having come across him while researching a roll of honour (that lists all members of association who served - see signature) I'd love to know where the medals of Lt John William Russell MC DCM MM RE (also MiD) ended up - http://blogs.mhs.ox.ac.uk/innovatingincombat/guest-post-david-underdown-lt-j-w-russell-mc-dcm-mm-re-dorking/ all earned with 24 Divisional Signal Company for Loos, Messines and the 1918 Spring Offensive.

[Guest]

For interest - my Great Uncle LT Geoff Henderson from Adelaide Sth Australia was awarded the MM in 1917 then promoted in the field to Lt later in that year and then awarded the MC on 1/1/1919. I have the citations - both impressive reading!