Sapper Artificier

[geraint]

Came across this ranking for an RE sapper. He was a plumber pre-enlistment, and obviously the 'Artificier' refers to that trade as an artisan with the RE. Would he have a different status and higher pay than an ordinary sapper?

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Geraint

A sapper RE in 1914 received regimewntal daily pay of 1s 2d, but was also eligible for "engineer pay" at daily rates of between 4d and 2s once he had passed the relevant trade tests.

The regimental daily pay of shoeing and carriage-smiths was 2s per day but presumably the trade tests for this grade were not RE-specific.

So, different status: technically no, but higher pay: almost certainly.

Ron

[Terry_Reeves]

Just to add to Ron's reply, the REs also had the rank of Pioneer, introduced in 1912. These men did not have a recognised trade and received a lower rate of pay than a sapper.

TR

[geraint]

Ron

Thanks for that. I thought that there would be a different pay structure- thanks for the actual details.

Terry

Are you describing a different kind of pioneer to the line regiment pioneer battalions? I know that the pioneer battalions worked under an RE officer attached to the battalion. Are you saying that there were RE soldiers who would be ranked as 'Pioneer' as opposed to an ordinary RE man who would be ranked as 'Sapper', or a Pioneer Battalion infantryman who was ranked as 'Private'? I've never come across a soldier ranked as 'Pioneer'.

[Terry_Reeves]

Pioneer was a rank in then RE whereas in the infantry pioneer s it was not. An RE Pioneer, although trained in field works, could be found in signals units and in the RE Special Brigade for instance, although many of the latter came from the infantry. It was introduced before the war to make up the shortfall strength of the RE. Up until 1912, it was expected that most men joining the RE had a trade, but a drop in recruiting meant that the Corps had to start enlisting unskilled men. Some Pioneers eventually gained a recognised artisan trade, and thus the rank of Sapper, however the rank was retained throughout the war and eventually abolished, I think in 1921.

TR

[salesie]

Don't know about the RE's back then, but Artificers were (are?) an integral part of the trades structure of the REME (formed in 1941 from elements of the RE and RAOC). In my day (1960s/70s), to be a tradesman in the REME you needed to pass the class III trade test, which meant getting the rank of craftsman (Lance Corporal for the technician grades). To become a full corporal you needed to pass class II, and class I for sergeant - but passing the relevant trade tests did not mean automatic promotion (apart from the technician grades, where it usually did based on time served in grade). Above sergeant came the Artificer ("Tiffie") grades - successful completion of the "Tiffie" course carried the rank of Staff Sergeant, with WOII & WOI (ASM) coming on merit. So, no tradesman in the REME could progress beyond sergeant and stay in trade without being a "Tiffie", but could gain higher rank by taking on regimental (non trade) duties.

I should imagine, therefore, that a sapper Artificer back then almost certainly had status and/or rank above that of an ordinary sapper - if he was ranked as a sapper but kept his trade status as an Artificer (which stayed with you always), I should think that he'd been "busted" for some "crime" or other?

Cheers-salesie.

[salesie]

Don't know about the RE's back then, but Artificers were (are?) an integral part of the trades structure of the REME (formed in 1941 from elements of the RE and RAOC). In my day (1960s/70s), to be a tradesman in the REME you needed to pass the class III trade test, which meant getting the rank of craftsman (Lance Corporal for the technician grades). To become a full corporal you needed to pass class II, and class I for sergeant - but passing the relevant trade tests did not mean automatic promotion (apart from the technician grades, where it usually did based on time served in grade). Above sergeant came the Artificer ("Tiffie") grades - successful completion of the "Tiffie" course carried the rank of Staff Sergeant, with WOII & WOI (ASM) coming on merit. So, no tradesman in the REME could progress beyond sergeant and stay in trade without being a "Tiffie", but could gain higher rank by taking on regimental (non trade) duties.

I should imagine, therefore, that a sapper Artificer back then almost certainly had status and/or rank above that of an ordinary sapper - if he was ranked as a sapper but kept his trade status as an Artificer (which stayed with you always), I should think that he'd been "busted" for some "crime" or other?

Cheers-salesie.

[geraint]

Terry + Salesie Thanks for those detailed answers. Certainly worth repeating Salesie