corisande Posted 19 December , 2009 Share Posted 19 December , 2009 My interest is with the 6th and 7th Royal Dublin Fusiliers in this War Zone After the withdrawal of the 10th Division to Salonika, I am trying to see where the wired line protecting the city was drawn up. So far all I have managed to find online are area maps, rather than detailed maps of the city and its immediate area. Anybody have any suggestions. Salonika is certainly a front with little written about it. In the research I have done so far on the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, in France and in Gallipoli, I have come to look on them as forgotten battalions of a forgotten regiment. Now I find they are serving in a forgotten war zone in Salonika! (I do not live in UK so certain easy areas of research are not open to me, and I am unable to get Under the Devil's Eye under £100 at the moment!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 20 December , 2009 Share Posted 20 December , 2009 i have a quite large file photo of the 6th batt prior to going to the balkans . if you wanted it i could email it . mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2009 Mike Thanks for the offer, that is very kind of you, but what I am trying to do at the moment is get my head round where the Salonika campaign was actually being fought. I have managed to follow the progress from 10th Division landing in Oct 1915, to their withdrawal from the mountains 2 months later. So what I am trying to do now is establish for my own comprehension of the campaign , exactly where the Salonika perimeter was from Jan 1916 on. It is quite surprising the dearth of maps of the area round the city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 20 December , 2009 Share Posted 20 December , 2009 Apologies for the poor quality of the image but I was hand-holding my camera over the map at quite a long exposure - the National Archives doesn't allow the use of flash. Hope this helps. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2009 That is just what I wanted. Thank you very much indeed I can Photoshop it onto another map that does not show the position of the line As a matter of interest can you remember what it was in with in Nat Archives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 20 December , 2009 Share Posted 20 December , 2009 Mike Thanks for the offer, that is very kind of you, but what I am trying to do at the moment is get my head round where the Salonika campaign was actually being fought. I have managed to follow the progress from 10th Division landing in Oct 1915, to their withdrawal from the mountains 2 months later. So what I am trying to do now is establish for my own comprehension of the campaign , exactly where the Salonika perimeter was from Jan 1916 on. It is quite surprising the dearth of maps of the area round the city corisande, no worries, i just thought you might like to catalogue it or something, as i said its a very large file and as a result you can see the individual soldiers and officers faces very clearly, even the tiles on the barracks roof!. anyway the very best with your endevours to search. mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 20 December , 2009 Share Posted 20 December , 2009 As a matter of interest can you remember what it was in with in Nat Archives? I'm afraid I can't with any certainty, off hand. I've had a look at the NA Catalogue and the most likely candidate is MR 1/2024/2-3. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2009 OK, thanks anyway - you would have had to have been a much better organised man than I to have had the reference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 21 December , 2009 Share Posted 21 December , 2009 My interest is with the 6th and 7th Royal Dublin Fusiliers in this War Zone As an aside my interest is in the Royal West Kent's. Up to a dozen officers and 300 men were diverted, I believe from being enroute to the Gallipoli-front, which was being closed down, and rebadged to the 7th Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers on the Salonikan front. In your research if you come across any mention of the RWK officers or the ORs I would be grateful if you could let me know. Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 21 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2009 Royal West Kent's should be on 7th RDF War Diary - which I have yet to do. Their War Diary is sporadic depending on who was writing it, and howmany officers were left to write it - I have just finished 7/RDF transcription for Gallipoli, available online from NA, but finished the day they get on ship for Salonika Only thing I have found to date off another web site is:- October 15th , the 6th Dublins received a reinforcing draft of eight officers and 389 other ranks from the 2nd Norfolk Regiment. On the same day the 7th battalion received a draft of six officers and 302 men from the 3rd Royal West Kent Regiment plus thirty other ranks from the 3rd and 4th Reserve Battalions of the Dublins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 22 December , 2009 Share Posted 22 December , 2009 Thanks for sharing this. In case this is of interest to you I believe all the RWK offices were wounded or sick at some stage. (I need to be careful I dont confuse with 2/20 Londons who were affiliated to the RWK and also served in Salonica). Only one died - killed accidently from memory. This was J.S. Wacher, ex-King's School, Canterbury, (so Hambro would have information on him). He had served briefly in France with 1st Bn in 1915 before going to Salonica and service with 7/RDF. Strangely half the "unknown" RWK fatalities are on the Doiran memorial under the RWKs and the other half are under RDF. Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 22 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2009 Re West Kents, I came across this web page The relevant bit talks about Lt Le Cocq and his 300 men and is about half way down that pdf file (sorry never cracked copying and pasting from pdf!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purley Posted 22 December , 2009 Share Posted 22 December , 2009 [ what I am trying to do at the moment is get my head round where the Salonika campaign was actually being fought. The big problem is that so many places have changed names since 1916 as the old Turkish names were replaced. Her are a few changes - perhaps some others can add to the list . The list refers to places frequented by the 7th Royal Berks - apologies if the table comes out funny as I have never yet found how to add tables to the GWF 1918name 2009 name lat - N long - E country-2009 Apollonia 40-38-03 23-24-29 Greece Rodopoli 41-15-40 23-00-03 Greece Amberkoj Greece Arakli Greece Ardzan - lake Greece Asagi Mahalla Greece Bacava Greece Beshik - lake Volvi Greece Bogdanci Bogdanci 41-12-22 22-35-03 Macedonia Bogorodica Macedonia Bujuklu Greece Cakli Mouries 41-15-18 22-47-47 Greece Canakcil Greece Causica Greece Caussica Greece Cepelli Greece Cernica Macedonia Cugunci Greece Czernil Greece Dautli Greece Doiran - lake Doiran - lake Greece Doiran - town Old Doiran 41-11-07 22-42-11 Macedonia Doldzeli Greece Dova Tepe Kalochori 41-17-08 22-55-55 Greece Dremiglava Greece Gavalanci Greece Gjavoto Macedonia Gocelli Macedonia Gusvesne Greece Hamzali Macedonia Hirsova Greece Hodzasuju river Greece Izlis Macedonia Jajladzik Greece Jeni Mahale Macedonia Jumeaux - river Macedonia Kalinova Greece Karamodli Mavroplagia 41-11-07 22-53-58 Greece Karaomerli Greece Karasouli Polykastro 41-00-04 22-33-34 Greece Kerupnik Greece Kilindir Kalindria 41-08-52 22-47-24 Greece Kirec Greece Kireckena Greece Korfali Greece Kosturino Macedonia Kriston Kilkis 40-59-38 22-52-30 Greece Laina Lagyna 40-43-28 23-00-17 Greece Langaza - lake Koronia Greece Langaza - village Langadikia 40-38-09 23-14-48 Greece Lembet Greece Macukovo Greece Malovci Greece Marika river Greece Maritsa river Greece Mihalova Ford Greece Monastir Greece Moravca Monolithi0 41-09-09 22-51-58 Greece Morrec Greece Petralic Greece Petric Petric 41-23-28 23-12-41 Greece Popcevo Macedonia Rabovo Redon Greece Rates Greece Reselli Greece Sal Grec Avance Greece Salonika Thessaloniki 40-38-22 22-54-40 Greece Sarageul (Sarigal) Greece Sarakli Perivolaki 40-44-47 23-03-11 Greece Sarijar Greece Selimi Greece Serres Serres 41-05-37 23-32-43 Greece Snevce Kentriko 41-08-50 22-53-44 Greece Sofia Sofia 42-41-52 23-20-20 Greece Spancovo Greece Stavros Stavros 40-39-49 23-42-12 Greece Stojakovo Macedonia Stovova Greece Strumnica Strumica 41-26-24 22-38-34 Macedonia Tetre Vert Greece Tumba Agios Vasilios 40-39-54 23-08-50 Greece Valandovo Valandovo 41-19-13 22-33-37 Macedonia Vardar river Greece Vergetor Greece Vladaja Greece Volali Greece Yaibauir Greece regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 23 December , 2009 Share Posted 23 December , 2009 So what I am trying to do now is establish for my own comprehension of the campaign , exactly where the Salonika perimeter was from Jan 1916 on. It is quite surprising the dearth of maps of the area round the city Salonika is not a campaign that I know anything about, however there are several maps which are together on the same CD-Rom as those for Gallipoli and Palestine [Official History of the Great War, Military Operations, Other Theatres 1914-1918 by the Naval & Military Press in association with the Imperial War Museum] This is one of those maps – 'The Entrenched Camp of Salonika, a conventional outline showing dispositions early in March 1916.' British forces are shown in red, the French in Blue, Bulgarian & German in black. detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 23 December , 2009 Share Posted 23 December , 2009 Re West Kents, I came across this web page The relevant bit talks about Lt Le Cocq and his 300 men and is about half way down that pdf file (sorry never cracked copying and pasting from pdf!) This is from the Regimental History. Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2009 Thanks to John and Michael for both the maps and the names I think I am at least beginning to get there now with an understanding of the various parts of the campaign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 23 December , 2009 Share Posted 23 December , 2009 The list of names seems rather varied and only a few seem to have modern equivalents. There are also some such as Doldzeli for which the details are not quite right. Doldzeli was a village in Serbia which was already derelict by the time of the war and it's location is now in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM for short). The Salonika Camapign Society, which is well worth joining for £7 a year, published a gazetter of many old and new names in a past copy of their magazine "The New Mosquito". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27thBN Posted 23 December , 2009 Share Posted 23 December , 2009 Great map are the numbers British division numbers if so i am not familiar with those divisions being there MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2009 The British continued to build up their forces, and by early 1916 the force had increased from just the 10th (Irish) Division to the 10th, 22nd, 26th, 27th and 28th divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purley Posted 23 December , 2009 Share Posted 23 December , 2009 The list of names seems rather varied and only a few seem to have modern equivalents. There are also some such as Doldzeli for which the details are not quite right. Doldzeli was a village in Serbia which was already derelict by the time of the war and it's location is now in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM for short). The Salonika Camapign Society, which is well worth joining for £7 a year, published a gazetter of many old and new names in a past copy of their magazine "The New Mosquito". Martin As I said the list of names are those mentioned in 7th Royal Berks material - Alan promised to send me a copy of his gazeteer but it has not arrived - I have been trying to identify the 1918 names with modern ones with little success and am hoping to get a few more matches from this thread. regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purley Posted 23 December , 2009 Share Posted 23 December , 2009 Great map are the numbers British division numbers if so i am not familiar with those divisions being there MC 122, 156 and 57 are French Divisions, 22, 28, 26. 10 are British - XVI is 16th Corps and 17 Col is French 17th Zouaves John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 23 December , 2009 Share Posted 23 December , 2009 There's a list of former and current village names here that I've found useful. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 15 June , 2021 Share Posted 15 June , 2021 Whilst the map of the birdcage front would appear to have been taken out by successive software upgrades, I have been able to use the following link. The map appears to be of Austro-Hungarian origin just prior to WW1. I am grateful that it was posted on another forum.http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-41.jpg The fact that the names in use during WW1 are on this map, and are not written in cyrillic either, have helped me to get a better idea of where certain villages were situated, both in modern day North Macedonia and Greece, with both areas seemingly affected by rural exodus to such an extent that a number of villages no longer appear on modern maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 16 June , 2021 Share Posted 16 June , 2021 On 20/12/2009 at 20:55, Rockdoc said: Apologies for the poor quality of the image but I was hand-holding my camera over the map at quite a long exposure - the National Archives doesn't allow the use of flash. Hope this helps. Keith A partial capture of the map image An approximation from a modern map Edit: restoration of image corrupted by software upgrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 16 June , 2021 Share Posted 16 June , 2021 On 23/12/2009 at 16:09, Rockdoc said: There's a list of former and current village names here that I've found useful. Keith Here's two other potential sourceshttp://vestiges.1914.1918.free.fr/Lieux_A.htm (You can navigate to other letters from here)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_exonyms_in_Greece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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