Map of Birdcage Front at Salonika

[corisande]

My interest is with the 6th and 7th Royal Dublin Fusiliers in this War Zone

After the withdrawal of the 10th Division to Salonika, I am trying to see where the wired line protecting the city was drawn up.

So far all I have managed to find online are area maps, rather than detailed maps of the city and its immediate area.

Anybody have any suggestions. Salonika is certainly a front with little written about it.

In the research I have done so far on the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, in France and in Gallipoli, I have come to look on them as forgotten battalions of a forgotten regiment. Now I find they are serving in a forgotten war zone in Salonika!

(I do not live in UK so certain easy areas of research are not open to me, and I am unable to get Under the Devil's Eye under £100 at the moment!)

[west coast]

i have a quite large file photo of the 6th batt prior to going to the balkans . if you wanted it i could email it .

mike.

[corisande]

Mike

Thanks for the offer, that is very kind of you, but what I am trying to do at the moment is get my head round where the Salonika campaign was actually being fought.

I have managed to follow the progress from 10th Division landing in Oct 1915, to their withdrawal from the mountains 2 months later.

So what I am trying to do now is establish for my own comprehension of the campaign , exactly where the Salonika perimeter was from Jan 1916 on. It is quite surprising the dearth of maps of the area round the city

[Rockdoc]

Apologies for the poor quality of the image but I was hand-holding my camera over the map at quite a long exposure - the National Archives doesn't allow the use of flash.

Hope this helps.

Keith

[corisande]

That is just what I wanted. Thank you very much indeed

I can Photoshop it onto another map that does not show the position of the line

As a matter of interest can you remember what it was in with in Nat Archives?

[west coast]

Mike

Thanks for the offer, that is very kind of you, but what I am trying to do at the moment is get my head round where the Salonika campaign was actually being fought.

I have managed to follow the progress from 10th Division landing in Oct 1915, to their withdrawal from the mountains 2 months later.

So what I am trying to do now is establish for my own comprehension of the campaign , exactly where the Salonika perimeter was from Jan 1916 on. It is quite surprising the dearth of maps of the area round the city

corisande,

no worries, i just thought you might like to catalogue it or something, as i said its a very large file and as a result you can see the individual soldiers and officers faces very clearly, even the tiles on the barracks roof!. anyway the very best with your endevours to search.

mike.

[Rockdoc]

As a matter of interest can you remember what it was in with in Nat Archives?

I'm afraid I can't with any certainty, off hand. I've had a look at the NA Catalogue and the most likely candidate is MR 1/2024/2-3.

Keith

[corisande]

OK, thanks anyway - you would have had to have been a much better organised man than I to have had the reference!

[Jonathan Saunders]

My interest is with the 6th and 7th Royal Dublin Fusiliers in this War Zone

As an aside my interest is in the Royal West Kent's. Up to a dozen officers and 300 men were diverted, I believe from being enroute to the Gallipoli-front, which was being closed down, and rebadged to the 7th Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers on the Salonikan front.

In your research if you come across any mention of the RWK officers or the ORs I would be grateful if you could let me know.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[corisande]

Royal West Kent's should be on 7th RDF War Diary - which I have yet to do.

Their War Diary is sporadic depending on who was writing it, and howmany officers were left to write it - I have just finished 7/RDF transcription for Gallipoli, available online from NA, but finished the day they get on ship for Salonika

Only thing I have found to date off another web site is:-

October 15th , the 6th Dublins received a reinforcing draft of eight officers and 389 other ranks from the 2nd Norfolk Regiment. On the same day the 7th battalion received a draft of six officers and 302 men from the 3rd Royal West Kent Regiment plus thirty other ranks from the 3rd and 4th Reserve Battalions of the Dublins.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Thanks for sharing this. In case this is of interest to you I believe all the RWK offices were wounded or sick at some stage. (I need to be careful I dont confuse with 2/20 Londons who were affiliated to the RWK and also served in Salonica).

Only one died - killed accidently from memory. This was J.S. Wacher, ex-King's School, Canterbury, (so Hambro would have information on him). He had served briefly in France with 1st Bn in 1915 before going to Salonica and service with 7/RDF.

Strangely half the "unknown" RWK fatalities are on the Doiran memorial under the RWKs and the other half are under RDF.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[corisande]

Re West Kents, I came across this web page

The relevant bit talks about Lt Le Cocq and his 300 men and is about half way down that pdf file (sorry never cracked copying and pasting from pdf!)

[purley]

[ what I am trying to do at the moment is get my head round where the Salonika campaign was actually being fought.

The big problem is that so many places have changed names since 1916 as the old Turkish names were replaced. Her are a few changes - perhaps some others can add to the list . The list refers to places frequented by the 7th Royal Berks - apologies if the table comes out funny as I have never yet found how to add tables to the GWF

1918name 2009 name lat - N long - E country-2009

Apollonia 40-38-03 23-24-29 Greece

Rodopoli 41-15-40 23-00-03 Greece

Amberkoj Greece

Arakli Greece

Ardzan - lake Greece

Asagi Mahalla Greece

Bacava Greece

Beshik - lake Volvi Greece

Bogdanci Bogdanci 41-12-22 22-35-03 Macedonia

Bogorodica Macedonia

Bujuklu Greece

Cakli Mouries 41-15-18 22-47-47 Greece

Canakcil Greece

Causica Greece

Caussica Greece

Cepelli Greece

Cernica Macedonia

Cugunci Greece

Czernil Greece

Dautli Greece

Doiran - lake Doiran - lake Greece

Doiran - town Old Doiran 41-11-07 22-42-11 Macedonia

Doldzeli Greece

Dova Tepe Kalochori 41-17-08 22-55-55 Greece

Dremiglava Greece

Gavalanci Greece

Gjavoto Macedonia

Gocelli Macedonia

Gusvesne Greece

Hamzali Macedonia

Hirsova Greece

Hodzasuju river Greece

Izlis Macedonia

Jajladzik Greece

Jeni Mahale Macedonia

Jumeaux - river Macedonia

Kalinova Greece

Karamodli Mavroplagia 41-11-07 22-53-58 Greece

Karaomerli Greece

Karasouli Polykastro 41-00-04 22-33-34 Greece

Kerupnik Greece

Kilindir Kalindria 41-08-52 22-47-24 Greece

Kirec Greece

Kireckena Greece

Korfali Greece

Kosturino Macedonia

Kriston Kilkis 40-59-38 22-52-30 Greece

Laina Lagyna 40-43-28 23-00-17 Greece

Langaza - lake Koronia Greece

Langaza - village Langadikia 40-38-09 23-14-48 Greece

Lembet Greece

Macukovo Greece

Malovci Greece

Marika river Greece

Maritsa river Greece

Mihalova Ford Greece

Monastir Greece

Moravca Monolithi0 41-09-09 22-51-58 Greece

Morrec Greece

Petralic Greece

Petric Petric 41-23-28 23-12-41 Greece

Popcevo Macedonia

Rabovo Redon Greece

Rates Greece

Reselli Greece

Sal Grec Avance Greece

Salonika Thessaloniki 40-38-22 22-54-40 Greece

Sarageul (Sarigal) Greece

Sarakli Perivolaki 40-44-47 23-03-11 Greece

Sarijar Greece

Selimi Greece

Serres Serres 41-05-37 23-32-43 Greece

Snevce Kentriko 41-08-50 22-53-44 Greece

Sofia Sofia 42-41-52 23-20-20 Greece

Spancovo Greece

Stavros Stavros 40-39-49 23-42-12 Greece

Stojakovo Macedonia

Stovova Greece

Strumnica Strumica 41-26-24 22-38-34 Macedonia

Tetre Vert Greece

Tumba Agios Vasilios 40-39-54 23-08-50 Greece

Valandovo Valandovo 41-19-13 22-33-37 Macedonia

Vardar river Greece

Vergetor Greece

Vladaja Greece

Volali Greece

Yaibauir Greece

regards

John

[michaeldr]

So what I am trying to do now is establish for my own comprehension of the campaign , exactly where the Salonika perimeter was from Jan 1916 on. It is quite surprising the dearth of maps of the area round the city

Salonika is not a campaign that I know anything about, however there are several maps which are together on the same CD-Rom as those for Gallipoli and Palestine [Official History of the Great War, Military Operations, Other Theatres 1914-1918 by the Naval & Military Press in association with the Imperial War Museum] This is one of those maps – 'The Entrenched Camp of Salonika, a conventional outline showing dispositions early in March 1916.' British forces are shown in red, the French in Blue, Bulgarian & German in black.

detail

[Jonathan Saunders]

Re West Kents, I came across this web page

The relevant bit talks about Lt Le Cocq and his 300 men and is about half way down that pdf file (sorry never cracked copying and pasting from pdf!)

This is from the Regimental History. Many thanks.

[corisande]

Thanks to John and Michael for both the maps and the names

I think I am at least beginning to get there now with an understanding of the various parts of the campaign

[MartinWills]

The list of names seems rather varied and only a few seem to have modern equivalents. There are also some such as Doldzeli for which the details are not quite right. Doldzeli was a village in Serbia which was already derelict by the time of the war and it's location is now in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM for short).

The Salonika Camapign Society, which is well worth joining for £7 a year, published a gazetter of many old and new names in a past copy of their magazine "The New Mosquito".

[27thBN]

Great map are the numbers British division numbers if so i am not familiar with those divisions being there

MC

[corisande]

The British continued to build up their forces, and by early 1916 the force had increased from just the 10th (Irish) Division to the 10th, 22nd, 26th, 27th and 28th divisions.

[purley]

The list of names seems rather varied and only a few seem to have modern equivalents. There are also some such as Doldzeli for which the details are not quite right. Doldzeli was a village in Serbia which was already derelict by the time of the war and it's location is now in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM for short).

The Salonika Camapign Society, which is well worth joining for £7 a year, published a gazetter of many old and new names in a past copy of their magazine "The New Mosquito".

Martin

As I said the list of names are those mentioned in 7th Royal Berks material - Alan promised to send me a copy of his gazeteer but it has not arrived - I have been trying to identify the 1918 names with modern ones with little success and am hoping to get a few more matches from this thread.

regards

John

[purley]

Great map are the numbers British division numbers if so i am not familiar with those divisions being there

MC

122, 156 and 57 are French Divisions, 22, 28, 26. 10 are British - XVI is 16th Corps and 17 Col is French 17th Zouaves

John

[Rockdoc]

There's a list of former and current village names here that I've found useful.

Keith

[Keith_history_buff]

Whilst the map of the birdcage front would appear to have been taken out by successive software upgrades, I have been able to use the following link. The map appears to be of Austro-Hungarian origin just prior to WW1. I am grateful that it was posted on another forum.
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-41.jpg
The fact that the names in use during WW1 are on this map, and are not written in cyrillic either, have helped me to get a better idea of where certain villages were situated, both in modern day North Macedonia and Greece, with both areas seemingly affected by rural exodus to such an extent that a number of villages no longer appear on modern maps.

[Keith_history_buff]

On 20/12/2009 at 20:55, Rockdoc said:

Apologies for the poor quality of the image but I was hand-holding my camera over the map at quite a long exposure - the National Archives doesn't allow the use of flash.

Hope this helps.

Keith

A partial capture of the map image

An approximation from a modern map

 

Edit: restoration of image corrupted by software upgrade

[Keith_history_buff]

On 23/12/2009 at 16:09, Rockdoc said:

There's a list of former and current village names here that I've found useful.

Keith

Here's two other potential sources

http://vestiges.1914.1918.free.fr/Lieux_A.htm
(You can navigate to other letters from here)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_exonyms_in_Greece