Trios that are no more

[stephen p nunn]

It was Chelmsford second-hand market today. Always good fun - especially as there are usually two militaria dealers, sometimes with GW medals. Spoke to one of them who offered me some medals:

A Driver in the RFA

A Sergeant in the SLI

The trouble was that they were originally trios but, yes you've guessed it, the silver BWMs were missing. I am sure that this subject has been covered before, but what a sad sight that is? At sometime in the past someone (relatives?) has sold those for scrap leaving the other two to eventually turn up at the market. In a strange way doesn't it says a lot about the sacrifice that these brave chaps made and the attitude that some people had in the aftermath?

Regards.

SPN

Maldon

[Guest KevinEndon]

A medal or a loaf or 2 for the family, I guess the loaf or 2 won. I expect if a ex-soldier of today had to sell their medals to meet the mortgage to keep the roof over their heads the outcome would be very similar to that of earlier days

[stephen p nunn]

A medal or a loaf or 2 for the family, I guess the loaf or 2 won. I expect if a ex-soldier of today had to sell their medals to meet the mortgage to keep the roof over their heads the outcome would be very similar to that of earlier days

Guess so and have heard that before but doesn't make it any easier when you look at what is left behind today.

SPN

Maldon

[regimentalrogue]

Even when only a single medal survives from a broken group, a caring collector can still take that as a starting point to research and commemorate the soldier's service. Those collectors who spurn broken groups for only pristine ones can easily miss interesting histories. Whether the soldier was a hero or a knave, each one has a story and we can do no less than to preserve what remains, of both their medals and their service.

As a regimental collector, I never hesitate to acquire single medals or other broken groups to Great War soldiers of the Regiment. In my small collection, I actually have more single War Medals (12) than Victory Medals (7). That may hardly be a statistical sampling of about 4000 First World War soldiers in the Regiment, but it is also supported by the fact that I have found eight trios (some as part of larger groups) and only one 1914-15 Star/VM broken group.

[wulsten]

As stated before sad reality many BWM`s met their fate in the silver boom of the 70`s

[richardIII]

I agree with wulsten. I used to buy from a dealer who did not give a damn that at the height of the silver boom he claimed to haved scrapped every BWM he got even those from pairs and trios etc. he was not ashamed to tell people this.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Gold has hit an all time high. Does anyone know what the price of scrap silver in the 70's compared to today's prices that so many were sold off, could history repeat itself for those so called "unwanted" BWM's

Kevin

[Smithmaps]

My Mum was at college doing jewellery at College, and scrapped her Fathers GW medal and her Grandad's Boer War medals with his permission. They didn't have much money, and he was glad to help her out. I don't think they meant too much to them in those days. Infact the recipients oftem found them a bit insulting. A la, "Is that all I get for four years of hell"? Not all of course.

I still have his single, but I truly believe that medals become more important the further you get from events.

Quite literally now, they can be the only thing left of an individual, and all other traces of their lives can have vanished. Quite sobering for those of us who leave no medals behind.

Guy

[59165]

Those collectors who spurn broken groups for only pristine ones can easily miss interesting histories.

Very,very well said.

Same go's for collectors that disdain a 'ding' or partially erased/officially renamed,etc.

It is all very well going as far as saying,'I am the new custodian & guardian of these medals & their monetary value means nothing to me', whilst not paying any interest in a broken group.

It's all down to cash or kudos at the end of the day.

[27thBN]

The scrap value is quite a bit less than the silver value so i think we are safe for the time being .Still you never know what can happen .Very sad affair :angry2:

MC

[philtaylor]

Is anyone here seriously telling us that silver medals still go into silver scrap pots? In the 70's how many collectors were concerned about BWM's, not enough for them to make serious money thats for sure. You only have to worry when the value to collectors goes below that of the scrap, I'm fairly confident that the price of bronze won't outstrip the collectable value of the VC.

[David B]

So what if the medals are split up, destroyed etc. The only ones that are concerned about this is medal collectors, who, for some unknown reason want a wall

festooned with dozens of the same Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. Seen one seen them all. My view on medal collectors is that they are only in it for the money that

can be gained buying and selling (only for a profit mind you).

The men who really earned these medals from my reading didn't give a monkeys toss about them. Three of my rels who served just tossed them into the chest

of drawers unmounted and forgotten. I also have a photo of the Anzac day march in Warrnambool Victoria in 1939 and surprise, surprise not one marcher is

wearing a medal., Plenty of RSL badges though.

Would appear the further away from 1914-18 the more these items become desirable - in the hands of collectors anyway.

David

[14kvn]

The trouble was that they were originally trios but, yes you've guessed it, the silver BWMs were missing. I am sure that this subject has been covered before, but what a sad sight that is? At sometime in the past someone (relatives?) has sold those for scrap leaving the other two to eventually turn up at the market. In a strange way doesn't it says a lot about the sacrifice that these brave chaps made and the attitude that some people had in the aftermath?

Regards.

SPN

Maldon

I find it hard to believe that the value of the silver scrap is that much to be worthwhile .

I have my Grandfather's trio and have been concerned what might happen to them so in order to preserve them - I hope ! - I have Willed them to his regiment where I can only hope they will be preserved.

I believe such medals are important historical artefacts and should preserved where ever possible.

Kevin

In memory of Gunner J H Gent - 1/1 Cambs & 118 MGC . 1914 -17

[Ken Lees]

So what if the medals are split up, destroyed etc. The only ones that are concerned about this is medal collectors, who, for some unknown reason want a wall

festooned with dozens of the same Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. Seen one seen them all. My view on medal collectors is that they are only in it for the money that

can be gained buying and selling (only for a profit mind you).

The men who really earned these medals from my reading didn't give a monkeys toss about them. Three of my rels who served just tossed them into the chest

of drawers unmounted and forgotten. I also have a photo of the Anzac day march in Warrnambool Victoria in 1939 and surprise, surprise not one marcher is

wearing a medal., Plenty of RSL badges though.

Would appear the further away from 1914-18 the more these items become desirable - in the hands of collectors anyway.

David

Does anyone else see the above as a pretty insulting, sweeping statement?

David, how do you reconcile the greedy, profit-hungry collectors with those of us who are prepared to pay way over the going rate for medals in an economic climate that quite clearly indicates that prices will not be going up any time soon?

How would you feel if someone posted that anyone who posts lists of names after their posts is obviously someone who feels deeply inadequate about their own failure to achieve anything in their own life and feels the need to bask in the reflected 'glory' of others? Insulted perhaps?

Ken

[Gardeb]

So what if the medals are split up, destroyed etc. The only ones that are concerned about this is medal collectors, who, for some unknown reason want a wall

festooned with dozens of the same Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. Seen one seen them all. My view on medal collectors is that they are only in it for the money that

can be gained buying and selling (only for a profit mind you).

The men who really earned these medals from my reading didn't give a monkeys toss about them. Three of my rels who served just tossed them into the chest

of drawers unmounted and forgotten. I also have a photo of the Anzac day march in Warrnambool Victoria in 1939 and surprise, surprise not one marcher is

wearing a medal., Plenty of RSL badges though.

Would appear the further away from 1914-18 the more these items become desirable - in the hands of collectors anyway.

David

HERE WE GO AGAIN !!!!

[dundeesown]

Have to agree with you Ken,but this old chestnut raises it`s head every time medals are on the agenda,I collect medals and don`t give a T--s what the moral highground brigade think.

Gary.

[Heid the Ba]

David, how do you reconcile the greedy, profit-hungry collectors with those of us who are prepared to pay way over the going rate for medals in an economic climate that quite clearly indicates that prices will not be going up any time soon?

What you pay is the going rate, the market sets the price for that medal. It may be more or less than for a similar medal but it is the going rate for that one.

[1st AIF]

So what if the medals are split up, destroyed etc. The only ones that are concerned about this is medal collectors, who, for some unknown reason want a wall

festooned with dozens of the same Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. Seen one seen them all. My view on medal collectors is that they are only in it for the money that

can be gained buying and selling (only for a profit mind you).

The men who really earned these medals from my reading didn't give a monkeys toss about them. Three of my rels who served just tossed them into the chest

of drawers unmounted and forgotten. I also have a photo of the Anzac day march in Warrnambool Victoria in 1939 and surprise, surprise not one marcher is

wearing a medal., Plenty of RSL badges though.

Would appear the further away from 1914-18 the more these items become desirable - in the hands of collectors anyway.

David

This is the most idiotic statement I have seen on my time in this forum. It boiled my blood in just a few seconds.

If collectors didn't put a value on medals they would all be in the bin. I have medals from 250 AIF infantry diggers and I have only let go of one - who was was a proven grateful relative. If I wasn't a colllector, this grandson of a WW1 digger from 25Bn AIF, would never have got his grand dads medal. If a medal has as much value as yesterday's newspaper then they would be all gone - many in the decades after WW1 many ended up this way. . I will preserve and research my collection till the day I die. I am not a collector I am a custodian.See my webpage in homeage www.1staif.info

The best way to reconcile this is if you were a WW1 digger would you want your medals thrown out with the old milk cartons or would you like to think that even after 100 years people will spend money that they can't really afford to buy your medals in homage to your sacrifice?

Sorry David you are a real tool on this one.

Lest we forget - Len

Len

[regimentalrogue]

So what if the medals are split up, destroyed etc. The only ones that are concerned about this is medal collectors, who, for some unknown reason want a wall

festooned with dozens of the same Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. Seen one seen them all. My view on medal collectors is that they are only in it for the money that

can be gained buying and selling (only for a profit mind you).

The men who really earned these medals from my reading didn't give a monkeys toss about them. Three of my rels who served just tossed them into the chest

of drawers unmounted and forgotten. I also have a photo of the Anzac day march in Warrnambool Victoria in 1939 and surprise, surprise not one marcher is

wearing a medal., Plenty of RSL badges though.

Would appear the further away from 1914-18 the more these items become desirable - in the hands of collectors anyway.

David

That's ok old chap, you go sit in the corner and enjoy your pint while the adults have a chat.

[stevem49]

So no medal collector does it for a profit then. They are all caring sharing individuals - Ye right

I only have half a dozen and except for one, I would flog em for the right price.

Many ex soldiers from all eras have flogged their medals and no doubt will continue to do so.

[dougscarratt@tiscali.co.uk]

This is the most idiotic statement I have seen on my time in this forum. It boiled my blood in just a few seconds

Well said Len

I fully agree with you, what a thoughtless statement to make. ( Medal collectors are only in it for the money) what rubbish.

Doug boiling over

[Chris_Baker]

Will you, medal collectors or otherwise, stop quoting from posts above. The post from rgartillery now appears four times in full, in addition to the original. It fills up the forum server quite ununnecessarily. Use the delete key to erase the quote before you begin typing.

[Anthony Bagshaw]

I agree a very insulting sweeping statement has been made.

I will share with you the following story of a 16 year old Boy who gave his life in the Great War- David, according to you, i am only interested in money i can make out of his medals not his story especially the fact that he took 2 weeks to die of his wounds aged 16....... I don't think so..

12268 Rifleman Arthur Voss- 9th (Service) Battalion King’s Royal Rifle Corps

Arthur Voss was born in St Margaret’s, Leicester, circa late 1899/early 1900. The 1901 Census shows Arthur aged 1 residing at 41 Cranmer Street, Hinckley Road, Leicester, with his 4 siblings: Eunice, aged 6, Frank E aged 15, Gladys M aged 8, John G aged 13 along with his parents Arthur and Harriette, aged 42 and 37 respectively.

Sadly, nothing is known at this stage with regards to Arthur’s childhood however when war came to Europe in 1914, there is little doubt that Arthur would have been swept along with the patriotism of his peers and the immense sense of adventure. At 15 years old, there is little wonder that the Army appealed to him.

Arthur enlisted on 26th January 1915 at his home city of Leicester where he stated his age as 18 years and 141 days. Arthur was in all likelihood only 15 years and 141 days. Arthur measured in at 5 feet 8 inches tall- remarkably tall for a boy of his young age- weighing in at 120 pounds and a chest measurement of 34 inches fully expanded. He had grey eyes and light Brown hair.

There is little doubt that Arthur would have stood well next to his new comrades due to his size.

Having completed the enlistment process Arthur was granted the service number 12268, the Rank of Rifleman and was posted to the 6th Battalion of the King’s Royal Rifle Corps on 7th February 1915, who were at the time stationed at Winchester, the home of the Rifles.

Appearing to have undertaken 5 months training with the 6th Battalion, Arthur was posted to the 9th (Service) Battalion for active service on the Western Front. The 9th (Service) Battalion had been formed at Winchester in August 1914 as part of K1 and were attached to 42nd Brigade in the 14th (Light) Division. The original members of the Battalion landed at Boulogne on 20th May 1915, Arthur seems to have therefore been in a replacement draft. His posting occurred on the 14th July 1915 and he sailed from Folkestone with them the very same day, arriving, poignantly, at Boulogne.

When Arthur arrived with the Battalion they had just returned from serving in the notorious Ypres Salient, at Poperinghe. It is very likely that Arthur was in the 4th Draft of 113 men who arrived at Basseboom on 21st July 1915. This is however very difficult to prove but the time frame certainly seems to fit.

From here the Battalion returned to the trenches at Poperinghe and then found themselves in the Trenches both North and South of the Menin Road on 30th July 1915 where they were ordered to attack the German Trenches following the liquid fire attacks a few hours before. This was the infamous attack at Hooge which caught the British completely by surprise and introduced the dreaded new German weapon, the flamethrower.

This would no doubt have been Arthur’s first taste of action and one can only imagine the horrors that he saw following the ferocious fighting that occurred. The attack seems to have been successful and the survivors withdrew to billets at Brandhoek on 1st August.

Casualties had amounted to 5 Officers killed, Lieutenant Colonel Chaplin, Captains Durnford and Tanqueray, Lieutenant Renton and Second Lieutenant Faber with 6 Officers wounded, Captain Exell dying of wounds a day later, and 2 Officers missing.

49 other ranks were killed, 236 wounded and 37 missing.

This must have been a shock to Arthur who could not have imagined what the Front was like.

Following the actions at the end of July, the Battalion took their turn both in Billetts, reserve and the Front Line over the next few months.

The 1st August saw the Battalion move to Billetts at Brandhoek shortly followed by a move to the Ramparts, just outside of the Menin Gate on 20th August. From here they moved to the reserve trenches at Railway Wood on 24th, back to Billetts at Poperinghe on 29th, Poperinghe Trenches again on 16th September and then, once again, to rest.

On 24th September the Battalion were ordered to move forward to take part in an attack on Bellewarde Farm, zero to be 25th September at 04:30 and was to be part of a diversion for the Offensive taking place far South at Loos. The Battalion were not required to actually take part in the attack, remaining in support throughout however this did not prevent the Battalion from sustaining Casualties. 5 Officers were killed and 3 wounded. 33 other ranks were killed along with 188 wounded and 29 missing. One can again only assume what affect this had on the young Arthur Voss.

Another move to Poperinghe ensued on 26th back into the rest area where on 27th another draft of 188 Other Ranks arrived. The Battalion were inspected by the 5th Corps Commander on 28th and 6th Corps Commander, the day after, the 29th.

As they had done on several previous occasions the Battalion again found themselves in the Trenches at Poperinghe. On the 3rd October the Battalion, which included a newly arrived draft of 150 men, left the rest area and relieved the Durham Light Infantry in the Laais Salient. They were relieved on 7th and moved out to the huts near Vlamertinghe. A relief of the 7th Battalion took place at the Menin Road on 13th October. On the 17th a mine exploded under a trench held by the Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry however the German attack that followed was driven off. On the 22nd they were relieved and moved to Houtkerque. The Battalion were shelled on an almost daily basis, and further casualties were sustained, 3 Officers and 3 Other Ranks were killed. The 22nd also saw a draft of 22 men join and 2 days later a further 21.

The Battalion remained at Houtkerque for a month until the 18th November where they underwent training and reorganisation. From here they again moved to the Laais Salient relieving the 11th Essex, ad then interchanging every 48 hours with the 9th Rifle Brigade until the end of the month. The war diary describes this as a quiet period spent repairing the Potijze defences and attempting to drain waterlogged trenches.

Arriving back in the Trenches to carry on with this work on 1st December, the 9th began their next period of 48 hours. During this period, on the day they were due to be relieved, the 3rd December, Arthur Voss was severely wounded. A bullet had entered his back and had continued through, and ultimately into, his chest. Evacuated from the Front line, Arthur was admitted to 44th Field Ambulance, RAMC. However his wounds were so severe that he was admitted to the 13th General Hospital on 4th December, who were at the time stationed at Boulogne.

Arthur remained here receiving treatment until on the 17th December 1915 he succumbed to the wounds he received some 2 weeks previous. It can only be imagined that Arthur would have been in extreme discomfort and would have suffered immensely.

He was buried with full military honours in the cemetery attached and now lies in Plot 8, Row C, Grave 69. He was 16 years old.

Arthur’s personal effects were returned to his family in March 1916, these being; 1 pack of dominoes, 1 Raynor cigarette card, an aluminium ring, correspondence and photographs.

His medals were issued on 26th February 1920 and consisted of the 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal.

[welshdoc]

Ah it so good to seee the return of the "evil medal collector " theme, Ive missed it for at least 2 months. . To get back to the original idea of this topic, yes its a shame that lots of groups are broken up, but there are lots and lots of single BWMs around, so its always possible that you will get a reunite, I have managed 3 so far. I have dozens of singles which I have researched and tried to reunite. Also there is nothing wrong with making a profit now and then.

[stephen p nunn]

Sorry I seem to have started a bit of trouble here - certainly not my intention. I still think it is sad. I too have some singles (but still think its sad!). I don't buy to deal or make a profit - in fact once I have bought them and researched them I keep them! My wish at the end of my days is that they go to our local museum. Hope that's clear enough.

SPN

Maldon