john gregory Posted 8 December , 2009 Share Posted 8 December , 2009 John, I have seen plenty of evidence to show that blue bands (meant to be worn on their own) were often worn with crossed flags, crossed flag pinned through the blue band and blue shoulder straps. In a khaki world, if it could be worn it undoubtedly was, and often in bizarre combinations. The photo I refer to above will prove the point. I will post it later. I also have two versions of these blue bands with the flags still attached. Tocemma Tocemma, I am not distbuting anything you say, I have also seen and have photos showing various combinations of signallers flags, blue bands and flashes. I was told that the blue on the epaulette indicated the wearers company, if he was a signaller thats fine with me. JG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 8 December , 2009 Share Posted 8 December , 2009 Hi John, can you post a close up of the dragon patch ... it looks more like a griffin in the photo and unusual as it is facing the opposite way to the 38th Div patch that I know. thanks, Krithia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 8 December , 2009 Share Posted 8 December , 2009 Hi John, No suggestion of that. The only Divisional scheme I am aware of that used coloured shoulder straps to indicate companies, was the 25th Div. What we are seeing here is a scheme adopted at some point in 1917 to quickly identify function. For Grumpy Identification patches for Heavy and Siege Artillery and Battalion Signallers (GRO 2185) As Ammended by GRO 2266 As a means of identification for Field artillery and Battalion Signallers, more especially when employed on repair of telegraph lines at the front, it has been decided to provide strips of blue cloth for attachment to the shoulder straps of the service dress jacket. Patches of blue cloth, 6 in by 2 in., have been provided, and are now available for issue on a scale of two patches for each signaller on the establishment of the Battery or Battalion concerned. Demands for the number required should be submitted through the usual channels. (12.3.17) (20.4.17) Photo to follow when I find it! Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 8 December , 2009 Share Posted 8 December , 2009 Blue band with flags pinned through (supposed to be worn on its own, officially on the left cuff, but sometimes seen on the upper left arm. In this case of course worn lower left cuff where the flags would normally be) White cotton band with red stripes. Unidentified. I have always thought this could well be Lowland Division. (They wore a scheme of stripes on the cuff, and the crossed flags/band would be in this position) Could be something completely different, any takers? Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 8 December , 2009 Share Posted 8 December , 2009 Grumpy is this one ok, 13th Royal Welsh Fusiliers. JG Nice jacket! I think the Battalion/Company qualified signallers wore the blue band, whereas the Signal Company R.E. Wore the blue and white brassard on the upper arm. So there is a distinction. Clearly if he was a signaller by trade, he would be Royal Engineers. Probable reason for the difference, would be that company Signallers went 'Over the Top' with the men, and the Signal Coy R.E. generally did not. Therefore, bearing in mind the army's awareness of Officers and vulnerability to snipers, and the toning down of key people, it is probable that this was behind the move to the shoulder markings. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Check this one out... Probably W/4023, Robert E L Carmady, Royal Field artillery, from Aberdare in South Wales. Note the groovy cut-out 38th Div Dragon, the blue band as per my previous post, and the blue shoulder strap cloth. So flags, blue band, and blue shoulder strap patches. Apart from a flashing neon sign on his trench cap saying 'signaller' there was little more Bob could do to advertise his trade. He served overseas from Christmas day (poor sod) 1915. Bob died in 1967. Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Start the day with a Larf.... I just did, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Just in case anyone is wondering about the different shades between the band and the shoulder straps in the last photo, remember that different shades of blue show widely differing results on old film stock. To prove the point here is another Welsh Signaller from the same Div. Note also how he has shaped the patches and his brass shoulder titles. Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 (edited) Grumpy, Officers 'funk' or 'wind up' jacket. Captain Frederick Arthur Waugh MC , 8th Battalion, Lincolnshire Regiment. I have the original chit for the issue of this OR's jacket, with an iron ration and gas helmet issued to 2nd Lt Waugh at the railhead. Note the three different pips matched exactly on the opposite shoulder strap, charting his rise from Sub to Captain. The lower bar is faded green. Note the quality of the stitching, known I believe as 'homeward bounders' in the Royal Navy! ie start off neat, then bigger and bigger, and then **** it! Tocemma Edited 4 February , 2019 by tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 (edited) Uniform of 2nd Lt. William Storey Paton, 11th Battalion, The Border Regiment, (Lonsdale Battalion) which was until a couple of years ago in my collection. I'm pleased to say it is now in the Regimental Museum, which is where it should be. Lt Paton was killed in action on 1st July 1916. The interesting insignia title was probably made to order by Cash the people that used to make the school name tapes. I have seen WW1 period advertisements for this Company. I also once owned a tunic belonging to Lt H C Lunn who was killed in action in March 1917. This had a similar tape at the shoulder with 'Royal Scots' in dark blue on khaki tape. Lt Lunn was serving with the 11th Battalion, RS, at the time of his death. I wonder does a forum member now own this tunic? I regret I did not photograph it when it was in my posession. It would be interesting to have it documented here. Tocemma Edited 4 February , 2019 by tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 (edited) Lt Paton's tunic, cap and sam browne. Note the stitched on black band (probably a mourning band) stitched to the sleeve. I have a picture of Lt Paton in this very tunic which was taken prior to the addition of the insignia and the mourning band. The insignia must date to early 1916. The cash tape XI Border titles were also worn by other ranks. I have a photo of this being worn by a ranker. Tocemma Edited 4 February , 2019 by tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 (edited) Tunic to 2nd Lt Thomas Edward Williamson, 23rd Service Battalion (1st Sportsmans) Royal Fusiliers. French grey bomb worn below collar at rear. Tocemma Edited 4 February , 2019 by tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Just found the thread I mentioned earlier http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...mp;hl=signaller Post 15 is the photo I mentioned in my original reply to this thread Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Some nice tunics so far! here are some of mine, I have information on some and none on others, I'll update with details as I have to steer clear of the office as it is next to my 4 year olds bedroom and he is still not asleep. Anyway, RND Surgeron Lt Tunic: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 wind up tunic to a Manchesters Lt, I have his details - to follow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Canadian 1st CMR, anonymous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 3 Bn CEF Maj. Anonymous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 24 Bn CEF Lt. Lt Riley DOW Sept 1918, From 24th Bn History by R.C.Fetherstonhaugh. Joined Nov 1914, Commissioned from the ranks Lt C.E. ( Charles Edward) Riley after service in the battalion....only 58 such officers in the 24th. in war. Officer casualties between Aug 25-9 1918...Lt C.E. Riley KIA...died of wounds received.. In Aug 666 24th Bn.men killed, wounded, or missing. Riley was one of 8 officers killed that month..another 20 were wounded........ . Acquired from the great-neice of Riley: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 85 Bn CEF, anon, note the highland cut to general SD: RFC Maternity Capt, anon, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 One of my sentimental favourites, 2 Lt A.N. Gardiner, Notts & Derby, date August 17, 1916. I don't know much about him so anyone who has some information I'd apprecaite it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Capt. TMM Penny RA, no service information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Maj. Royal Welsh Fuslilers, Anon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 DCLI Pioneer, Anon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Capt. Cannon, East Surrey. Sniper officer, note the lack of collars - never had any. I have his MC citation I'll post later. okay that is about all for now, the board is unhappy with the number of images I've posted. I have some more RFC stuff, but they are mor ediffereing patterns of tunic verus having significantly different badges. I can post them if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 9 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Oh Boy! This is a rich seam. Should there be a problem with number of images, they can always be sent to me, preceded by a PM: I would happily act as a data bank for third parties. The revelation about shoulder patches has cleared a mystery which has bothered me for ages: more later on this when I get my head together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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