Which type could this be?

[Rockdoc]

There's an entry in the War Diary for 73rd Anti-Aircraft Section, recording a signal from GHQ received at 19.45 hrs on the 5th June, 1917, that reads:

Very large double engined British biplane is expected to arrive from West. Landing in British area and proceeding Eastwards within the next 24 hours.

Anyone have any thoughts about what it might have been?

73rd AAS were based at Dudular, about five miles NW of Salonika so presumably this aircraft was travelling from Italy but where was it going to? Due east is Turkey but Cyprus could be a destination and, from there, Egypt.

As always, any thoughts welcome.

Keith

[Martin Bennitt]

Sounds like a Handley Page 0/100 to me

cheers Martin B

[Rockdoc]

I think you're spot on, Martin. Wikipedia says that a single O/100 was flown to Moudros and bombed Constantinople, giving a reference to Barnes, Charles Henry (1987). Handley Page Aircraft Since 1907. London: Putnam & Company, Ltd. ISBN 0-85177-803-8.. It doesn't give a date but that sounds very like this machine. Thanks.

Keith

[sw63]

I agree. This is an 0/400:

Simon

[Rockdoc]

Just found the entry for the plane's flight on 7th June. This records a signal sent by 73rd to GHQ and the reply:

(09.18) Large plane flying British colours passed over this position at 09.18 and as far as observation would permit these were the particulars seen AAA Dihedral, overhung underplane tapering towards fuselage double engine two struts either side of nacelle rectagular box tail with two rudders set in between top and bottom of box tails prominent nacelle AAA Is this the plane expected please? OC 73rd AAS

(09.52) Yes AAA The expected plane hast just arrived safely

Keith

[centurion]

In July 1917 flying from Mudros it attacked the German battle cruiser  Goeben, moored at Constantinople, with eight 112 lb bombs. This was its target rather than the city (trying to anticipate 617 sqdn and the Tirpitz). 

Yes yes I know the Goeben had been technically transfered to the Turkish navy but it was still effectively a German ship with a German crew.

[Rockdoc]

I never cease to be amazed that we can identify something from such a vague description on this Forum. Thanks! I'll add these details as notes to my transcription of the Diary..

Keith

[Martin Bennitt]

what surprises me a bit is that an anti-aircraft unit didn't have recognition manuals and had to be given a description of the aircraft rather than just a designation. Or was this machine so unusual in this theatre that it didn't figure in the manuals issued to this particular unit?

cheers Martin B

[centurion]

Or was this machine so unusual in this theatre that it didn't figure in the manuals issued to this particular unit?

cheers Martin B

As it was the ONLY HP o/100 in theatre this will likely to have been the case

[centurion]

And as the Albatross GIII twin engined bomber was operating in theatre AA crews might have assumed that any twin engined aircraft was an enemy.

[Rockdoc]

I don't know but would guess that, with Salonika being very much a minor theatre, the AAS there would be most unlikely to see one of the latest planes from either side so I'd go for the latter option. That said, there was a German heavy-bomber squadron in the area not all that long beforehand. It had done considerable damage to Salonika itself before being transferred west to attack London (I thinik). The area between Dudular and Harmankoy, protected by 73rd AAS, had dumps, bases and hospitals so it wouldn't be surprising if the gunners were a bit trigger happy. Perhaps the original signal and others in the Diaries that warn of unusual flight-paths of friendly aircraft were a belt-and-braces exercise?

Keith

[centurion]

I don't know but would guess that, with Salonika being very much a minor theatre, the AAS there would be most unlikely to see one of the latest planes from either side so I'd go for the latter option. That said, there was a German heavy-bomber squadron in the area not all that long beforehand. It had done considerable damage to Salonika itself before being transferred west to attack London (I thinik). The area between Dudular and Harmankoy, protected by 73rd AAS, had dumps, bases and hospitals so it wouldn't be surprising if the gunners were a bit trigger happy. Perhaps the original signal and others in the Diaries that warn of unusual flight-paths of friendly aircraft were a belt-and-braces exercise?

Keith

As I posted above. The HP was entirely new to the theatre. German heavy bombers in the shape of the Albatross GIII were continuing to operate in the area.

[Martin Bennitt]

That said, there was a German heavy-bomber squadron in the area not all that long beforehand. It had done considerable damage to Salonika itself before being transferred west to attack London (I thinik).

Keith

"On the 26 February a large formation of twin-engined bombers attacked the French aerodrome at Gorkop. The raiders were Kaghol 1, a specialised bombing unit initially intended for action against Rumania but diverted to the Salonika front ... It was equipped with AEG, Rumpler and Friedrichshafen twin-engined bombers ... The arrival of this unit was a wake-up call for the Allies as now began an aerial bombardment of areodromes, camps and depots around Salonika. ... Kaghol 1 was withdran for service against London in May 1917." (Under the Devil's Eye, by Forum pal Alan Wakefield and Simon Moody)

cheers Martin B

[centurion]

 A silhouette book of early 1917 does not have the HP o/100 in it. Although the bomber went to France in late 1916 it was probably too late to get into the latest recognition books. Given this, the bombing raids in and around Salonika earlier in 1917 and the continued operation of some Albatross GIII twin engined bombers at the time the HP flew out to the Aegean it was a wise precaution to send out a description.

[Rockdoc]

Thanks for the info on the GIIIs, Centurion. So far, I've not found anything in the Diaries that says any more than the manufacturer when giving an enemy plane an ID. The names I've seen so far are Albatros, Halberstadt and Friedrickshafener - the latter by far the least common - and only "new type" to distinguish one from another. You do get occasional references to planes dropping bombs but after I'd read about Kaghol 1's departure from the theatre in Under the Devil's Eye and not found any evidence of bombing raids on Salonika after early 1917 I had, in my gross ignorance of WW1 aircraft, assumed that these were modified scouts rather than dedicated bombers. As a colleague used to say years ago, all too regularly, "You're not often right, Keith, and you're wrong again!"

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, eh?

Keith

[centurion]

Thanks for the info on the GIIIs, Centurion. So far, I've not found anything in the Diaries that says any more than the manufacturer when giving an enemy plane an ID. The names I've seen so far are Albatros, Halberstadt and Friedrickshafener - the latter by far the least common - and only "new type" to distinguish one from another. You do get occasional references to planes dropping bombs but after I'd read about Kaghol 1's departure from the theatre in Under the Devil's Eye and not found any evidence of bombing raids on Salonika after early 1917 I had, in my gross ignorance of WW1 aircraft, assumed that these were modified scouts rather than dedicated bombers. 

Although Friedrichshafen built 3 fighters or scouts (one a quadruplane and another a pusher) none saw production, much less service. Their main output was a variety of seaplanes and twin engined bombers so the Friedrickshafener (sic) will refer to bombers. German aircraft seeing service in or over, Salonika include: AEG CIV, AEG GIII, Albatross C VII, Albatross DV, Albatross GIII, Friedrichshafen GIII, Halberstadt DII & DIII This is not necessarily a complete list. The C types were capable of acting as light bombers and the G types were pure bomber.

Edit - and the DFW C V and Rumpler C I

[Rockdoc]

Is there any significance in the prefix letter? All the bombers you quoted were G and the others were C or D.

Keith

[ShirlD]

This is fascinating.

I have some little loose photographs in the 'family box', so I know which branch of the family they came from. These are the details written on the back:

Handley Page - Horatius G-AAXD

Fokker F7 Dutch make, British owned

Air Union - Golden Ray machine (Rayon D'or) Bleriot machine - very fast Paris in 1 hr 50 mins 250 miles

Are these of the same vintage as the ones you are discussing? It would make sense to me if they are.

Cheers

Shirley

[centurion]

This is fascinating.

I have some little loose photographs in the 'family box', so I know which branch of the family they came from. These are the details written on the back:

Handley Page - Horatius G-AAXD

Fokker F7 Dutch make, British owned

Air Union - Golden Ray machine (Rayon D'or) Bleriot machine - very fast Paris in 1 hr 50 mins 250 miles

Are these of the same vintage as the ones you are discussing? It would make sense to me if they are.

Cheers

Shirley

A little later. The Fokker F7 was a trimotor, first flights 1924, in service from about 1926. Without being able to look up the registration not sure about the HP but I think Horatio was a Hannibal class four engined biplane airliner. These were the peak of development of the biplane airliner, by all accounts very comfortable for passengers if the weather wasn't too bad. Had an enclosed flight deck but "a built in head wind" so it was relatively slow. You could fly to Egypt on one, This would put the date in the 1930s 

[centurion]

Yes I've checked Horatio was indeed an HP 42 Hannibal. Entered service around 1931. First heavier than air aircraft to offer an in flight bar

[ShirlD]

Centurion, thank you for that information.

Cheers

Shirley

[Dolphin]

Is there any significance in the prefix letter? All the bombers you quoted were G and the others were C or D.

Keith

The German Army aircraft designation system used a prefix letter for each class of aeroplane. In essence it was:

A = unarmed two seater monoplane

B = unarmed two seater biplane

C = armed two seater biplane

Cl = light armed two seater biplane

D = armed single seater (originally only biplanes, but later monoplanes as well)

DJ = armoured armed single seater*

Dr = armed single seater triplane

E = armed single seater monoplane (later absorbed into the D classification)

F = original designation for the F class

G = armed twin engined biplane

Gl = light armed twin engined biplane

J = armoured infantry-attack biplane

L = multi engined armed biplane*

N = single engined night bomber*

PE = armoured single seater*

R = multi engined giant aircraft, with engines accessible in flight

S = assault two seater*

* = not really used.

I hope that this helps.

Gareth

[Rockdoc]

Thanks, Gareth. Just the job!

Keith