cameronians @ scottish rifles ?

[jimmyboy]

is there any difference between the cameronians and the cameronians scottish rifles, the more i look into them there seems to be differences like badges ect?

[IanA]

The title 'Cameronians' properly belonged to the 1st battalion the Scottish Rifles. The subsequent battalions were simply 'Scottish Rifles'.

[DrB]

"Cameronians" refers (to the Purist) as the first bn, or the old 26th Ft., or Cameronian Regt, whereas the "Scottish Rifles" refers to the second bn, the old 91st Perthshire Light Infantry. They were "wed" during the Cardwell Reforms. Apparently there was no love lost between the two original battalions. There were differences between the badges as well as the 2nd bn, Scottish Rifles prior to the war had the much restruck SR super-imposed onto the bugle horn (when trying to anger the first Bn) , and the Cameronians wore the star (mullet, if you will) super-imposed over the bugle horn, surrounded by a wreath. During the war, all bns, 1st, 2nd and Service ones wore the "Mullet" over the bugle horn and wreath. Alas, like the World War One soldiers, all now faded into history.

Doc B

[dycer]

My Father of WW1 ilk,always said the Cameronians,could trace their lineage back to the Covenanters and as such were afforded the liberty,of bearing arms, in any Church of Scotland.

George

[jimmyboy]

is there any difference between the cameronians and the cameronians scottish rifles, the more i look into them there seems to be differences like badges ect?

thanks for the replies,found out on the cameronians website there is no difference the cameronians are also known as scottish rifles,

[DrB]

thanks for the replies,found out on the cameronians website there is no difference the cameronians are also known as scottish rifles,

Jimmyboy....yup, often carried in the old army lists as The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)each pre-war battalion with a different pedigree, the Cameronians were the original "Coventeers" and the 2nd Bn, primarily of prisoners, which must have indeed been a nasty lot, was formed as payback to the French during the Nap. Wars by Thomas Graham.

Sorry I misnumbered the 2nd Bn as the 91st. They were the 90th or Pershire Light Infantry.

I think in the confusion of WWI, the powers-that-be finally gave up and called them (the combined regiment) either the Cameronians or the Scottish Rifles. And, after 1915 and Neuve Chapelle, who was left to care? (Except that wonderful John Baynes)

Doc B

[roughdiamond]

My Father of WW1 ilk,always said the Cameronians,could trace their lineage back to the Covenanters and as such were afforded the liberty,of bearing arms, in any Church of Scotland.

George

At one of the Edinburgh Tattoo's I attended in 1989, at the start it was announced that the Cameronians, by then a TA unit, would mount a "Quarter Guard", 1 man at each corner of the esplanade high in the lighting rig, to commemorate their founding in 1689, it was explained that while outlawed Protestant prayer meetings or Covenants were being held outdoors, the Cameronians would mount a lookout guard in case Government soldiers were approaching.

Attendance of Covenants at this time was punishable by death, below is a link to the Cameronians history, read each section in turn, also look at the heading "Introduction" and read a "brief history".

http://www.cameronians.org/regiment/index.html

[dycer]

It is little comfort to me,roughdiamond,that you have proved an association,between the Camerionans,and the Church.

My Father,of WW1 ilk,always worshipped,when his work duties allowed,in the Church, he knew to be safe.

George

[roughdiamond]

It is little comfort to me,roughdiamond,that you have proved an association,between the Camerionans,and the Church.

My Father,of WW1 ilk,always worshipped,when his work duties allowed,in the Church, he knew to be safe.

George

To be honest George the link between the Church and the Cameronians must really have relaxed by the 1930's as my Wifes Grandfather spent 7 years in India with them pre WW2 as well as being with them at Dunkirk after he was mobilised 6 months after leaving. His choice of Regiment was strange as he was a 1st generation Scot who's parents were Irish Roman Catholics.

Anyway that's digressing from the topic, I don't want my knuckles rapped.

Sam

[Roxy]

I believe that, as mentioned, the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) were, unusually, permitted to carry their weapons in church and were issued a bible on enlistment.

Roxy

[dycer]

To be honest George the link between the Church and the Cameronians must really have relaxed by the 1930's as my Wifes Grandfather spent 7 years in India with them pre WW2 as well as being with them at Dunkirk after he was mobilised 6 months after leaving. His choice of Regiment was strange as he was a 1st generation Scot who's parents were Irish Roman Catholics.

Anyway that's digressing from the topic, I don't want my knuckles rapped.

Sam

Sam,

Doesn't seem so strange.

The Covenanters,formed as a reaction to the Established Church,in Scotland,at the time.

Presumably many of the original Cameronians,had their roots in the Established Church,but chose to "fight" its yolk,and defend the worship they felt more comfortable with.

Whilst it's an emotive subject,there always seems to be a fair degree of religious tolerance,within the Scottish Regiments,with all Denominations receiving equal respect.

George

[Chief_Chum]

"I believe that, as mentioned, the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) were, unusually, permitted to carry their weapons in church and were issued a bible on enlistment.

Roxy"

I think that, after the Indian Mutiny, all British units stationed in India carried weapons in Church.

If the SR did so at home they must have been unique I would think.

[dycer]

Taff,

The Honour would be for the Cameronians.

Whether it was granted to this Regiment, by the Church of Scotland, before it amalgamated with the Scottish Rifles would depend on the date the Honour was orginally granted.

George

[barrieduncan]

The title Scottish Rifles only came into existance following the amalgamation of the 26th (Cameronian) Regiment and the 90th (Perthshire) Light Infantry. Neither the 26th nor 90th had ever been called the Scottish Rifles prior to amalgamation.

It had been thought by many that the 90th LI were always the obvious choice to be included in the new Rifle Regiment in Scotland, and that they were somewhat dismayed to be merged with the dour, drab lowland 26th Cameronians. Recent research has unearthered however that it was the 26th who were first considered for the honour of becoming Scotland's only Rifle Regiment. In fact, documents exist in the Royal Archives that show the 26th was originally paired with another Scottish regiment (I can't remember if it was the 71st or 74th). This was later changed (i.e. scored out and rewritten), and the 26th was now paired to the 90th LI - and they duely became The Cameronians (Scotch Rifles) and shortly afterwards The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). It has been suggested that the reason the 90th were eventually put forward was down to two officers, Garnet Wolseley and Evelyn Wood VC (both former 90th men) who managed to convince the powers that be that the 90th deserved a place in the new Rifle Regiment.

All this comes from an excellent bit of research done by a retired Cameronian Officer, Major P. Grant, and which was published as a supplement to the Regimental Magazine, The Covenanter, a couple of years ago.

Before I knew anything about the Regiment, I asked the very same question. I was confused by a number of books that mentioned both the Cameronians and the Scottish Rifles in the same passage. I assumed from this that they were different Regiment's, but in fact they were different battalions of the same Regiment, that of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). The 1st Battalion were generally always referred to as the Cameronians, and the 2nd Battalion were known as Scottish Rifles. During the war, when the Territorial Force, Special Reserve, and New Army Battalions were involved, they were generally referred to as the Xth Bn Scottish Rifles.

What confuses the matter further however, is that several official sources tend to refer to all Battalions as either Cameronians or Scottish Rifles. Certainly on the medal index cards, you will find very few Cameronians - the vast majority are all Scottish Rifles, and this includes men from the 1st Battalion. This carried on into the 1920s - we have a large number of GSM Kurdistan medals in the collection. It was the 2nd Bn that served in this particular campaign, yet the majority of the medals are impressed as CAMERONIANS with only a few SCOTTISH RIFLES!