.311 Spandau Rifle?

[SteveE]

I have come across another War Diary reference (February 1916) for the East African campaign that makes mention of "one Askari armed with .311 German Spandau rifle" which means absolutely nothing to me I'm afraid.

I'm away from my references at the moment but I think the German Askari were initially armed with Model 1871 Mausers? Is this the same thing, possibly a Mauser manufactured in Spandau? or is the Spandau Rifle something different?

Can anybody please enlighten me?

Regards

Steve

[TonyE]

.311" is simply the imperial equivalent for the German 7.92mm service cartridge. Given the location, it is likely that the weapon was a Model 1888 rather than the then current M1898, and Spandau was one of the locations where they were made and this was stamped on the receiver ring.

So, from a Model 1888 rifle manufactured at the Imperial German Arsenal at Spandau in calibre 7.92 x 57 M88, we get ".311" Spandau rifle".

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

Wot TonyE said.

Probably not an 1871/84 as these were 11mm calibre IIRC (.433") I'd bet 1888 but it could also be a standard Gew98 (or even Kar 98) also made at Spandau. As it was specifically mentioned perhaps it was deemed unusual? (ie a "modern" rifle in the hands of soldiers usually carrying something else)

Chris

[centurion]

The Askari were equipped with 11mm MauserJagerbusche 71 single shot rifles (a shorter version of the Gew71) however a re equipment was underway when WW1 broke out. Five companies had been issued the Gew98 when further supplies were cut off. The rifle in question must have been one of these.

[SteveE]

Many thanks gentlemen, I now understand it's a Mauser manufactured at Spandau.

I must admit I hadn't considered that "As it was specifically mentioned perhaps it was deemed unusual? (ie a "modern" rifle in the hands of soldiers usually carrying something else)" If that is the case, and it does seem a good possibility then it could well have been one of the 1800 rifles that arrived on the blockade runner "Rubens" in April 1915, I think they were M1898 Mausers.

Thanks again

Steve

[deadin]

Be aware that there are two different diameter bullets used in the 8x57 Mauser.

The original as used in the Commission 88 used a .318 dia. (groove to groove) bullet. (J bore)

Later the diameter was changed to .323 with a lighter spitzer bullet. (S bore).

I would guess the “.311” came from the Brit method of measuring bores land to land (.303 British, etc.) , but I don't know which bullet diameter it would have refered to.

I’ve owned a few Commission 88'S that were converted and marked as suitable for “S” bullets. However the conversion consisted of free boring the throat to give the bullet a bit of a “jump” before squeezing it down.

According to some of my references the early (prior to 1905) GEW 98'S were also made with the "J" bore. but I have never seen one.

[centurion]

Many thanks gentlemen, I now understand it's a Mauser manufactured at Spandau.

I must admit I hadn't considered that "As it was specifically mentioned perhaps it was deemed unusual? (ie a "modern" rifle in the hands of soldiers usually carrying something else)" If that is the case, and it does seem a good possibility then it could well have been one of the 1800 rifles that arrived on the blockade runner "Rubens" in April 1915, I think they were M1898 Mausers.

Not sure those Gew 98s were issued to the Askari, if not then he could have been a member of one of the five companies of Askari issued with it in 1914 (as per mu previus post)

[SteveE]

then he could have been a member of one of the five companies of Askari issued with it in 1914 (as per mu previus post)

Quite possibly so, it wasn't my intention to, seemingly, discount your previous post in my response. I merely meant it to suggest that there was another alternative source for that rifle being in an askari's hands at that time.

Whatever the source of supply I think it's probably safe to say its a M1898 Mauser.

Regards

Steve

[TonyE]

Be aware that there are two different diameter bullets used in the 8x57 Mauser.

The original as used in the Commission 88 used a .318 dia. (groove to groove) bullet. (J bore)

Later the diameter was changed to .323 with a lighter spitzer bullet. (S bore).

I would guess the “.311” came from the Brit method of measuring bores land to land (.303 British, etc.) , but I don't know which bullet diameter it would have refered to.

I’ve owned a few Commission 88'S that were converted and marked as suitable for “S” bullets. However the conversion consisted of free boring the throat to give the bullet a bit of a “jump” before squeezing it down.

According to some of my references the early (prior to 1905) GEW 98'S were also made with the "J" bore. but I have never seen one.

The official date of changeover from the M88 to the "S" cartridge was 1 October 1905. Officials from the rifle factories went to the various depots and converted the rifles, stamping an "S" on them to indicate the new calibre.

Regards

TonyE

[gew98]

The official date of changeover from the M88 to the "S" cartridge was 1 October 1905. Officials from the rifle factories went to the various depots and converted the rifles, stamping an "S" on them to indicate the new calibre.

Regards

TonyE

Tony the adoption of the S patrone over the patrone 88 was in 1903 , NOT 1905. The year of transition was 1903 as NO 1904 or after gew98's will be found to have been sighted for the 88 patrone. The modification of gew88's on hand to handle the S patrone was started in 1905 hence the designation 88/05 for those that got that work.

As mentioned in english arms circles the german 7,9 patrone 88 when introduced was referred to as the ".311 mauser". The actual groove depth on gew88's was nominally .320/.321" The advent of the S patrone in 1903 had the bullet design increase the bullet diameter to .323". Exhisting gew88's and gew98's on hand already barreled for the S patrone simply had their throats lengthened and case mouth area reamed to allow chambering and safe pressures in the higher velocity and slightly larger diameter S patrone. As well the Lange visier rear sight leaf and slide were replaced on those 1903 and earlier rifles but had their 88 patrone 200 meter sight base left in place , though the leaf and slide could not be dropped to the 200 position after update.

The S mark on barrels was thereafter applied to new production as well as those retrofitted to handle the S patrone.

Oddly enough the germans gave the largess of their converted gew88'05's to the turks. That conversion to the S patr. also included modifying the magazine to an inline box type that was charged by the standard gew98 5 shot charger in place of the mannlicher clip. And in germany proper the germans retained the majority of gew88's using the mannlicher clip system whilst the rifles themselves were updated for the S patrone.

One shipment of gew98's rifles besides the colonial service gew98's on hand did reach Africa , and though the boat was sunk , and did burn the e majority of the rifles and ammunition on it was salvaged as the wter was shallow and few had been harmed by the fire.

Though the majority of Askaris were given the old blackpowder 71 & 71/84's it wa snot long before their ammunition became scarce and in turn as more 303 rifles were captured it would have made sense to move gew98's on hand down to the askaris as their ammo grew short and the germans managed a fair supply of captured 303 ammo for the enfields they in the end were mostly equipped with.

[TonyE]

With respect, I did not say that the S round was introduced in 1905, I said the official date of changeover to the S round was 1 October 1905.

Prior to that date the official isue ammunition was the M88 and after that date it was the S Patrone. (See Rifle and Carbine 98, Dieter Storz, 2006, P.84).

Regards

TonyE