War memorials

[Huw Davies]

I wonder if someone could help me.

The war memorial at Pencader, Carmarthenshire, and Drefach 15 miles away in Cardiganshire are both exactly the same, a white marble, flat capped soldier looking straight forward with his rifle held at his right side and his left foot resting on a shell casing.

The memorials at Aberbanc and Aberporth (both in Cardiganshire) along with the memorial at Cowbridge, Vale of Glamorgan (some 90 miles away) are also the same, a white marble flat capped soldier with both hands resting on the butt of an upturned rifle looking down reflectivley.

All 5 memorials have the same moustached face.

Prosperous towns like Lampeter and Carmarthen could afford to commission sculptors like Goscombe John to create unique figures, but smaller villages did not possess the resources to finance such spending. I've heard that when all the memorials were being created that catalouges were printed by entrepreneurial sculptors and companies for almost 'off the peg' sculptures.

What I would like to know is:

1. Is this true?

2. if so, what were the names of these companies and sculptors?

3. Where could I view and/or obtain a copy of any of these catalouges?

4. How much did they cost?

5. Who was the model for all these sculptures?

If anyone could enlighten me I'd be very grateful,

Huw

[geraint]

Hi Huw. Croeso i'r Fforwm. Isn't the Cydweli one the same as those mentioned in your second group? I believe that there was a lucrative market in these sculptures during the 1920s; and the demand must have been phenomenal on the limited numbers of monumemtal sculptors at that time. I must say that the detail on the right hand example is most life-like.

[Huw Davies]

Shw mae Geraint. Many thanks for the reply. I do believe that the Cydweli monument is the same, though I haven't seen it personally, which is why it isn't included. The Pencader one seems to be in a good condition and was in the process of being cleaned when I was there. Like everything else with the passge of years is kinder to some things than others, and when you look closely at some of them they ate quite worn by now.

[swizz]

Hi Huw

I don't know about these specific memorials, but you might be interested to read Angela Gaffney's book 'Aftermath: Remembering the Great War in Wales' which deals with memorials across Wales. I don't have my copy to hand so I can't check whether these memorials are in it, but I remember it being a very readable and interesting book.

Swizz

[Clive Maier]

Huw,

I asked a similar question way back, and no evidence emerged at that time of stock or modular mix-and-match components. I am still inclined to think that it must have happened, at least to a limited extent.

[Huw Davies]

Many thanks to you Swizz and Clive Maier for your replies. I intend to buy Angela Gaffneys book, hopefully it will either confirm or deny that such arrangements existed.

Here’s a quote from Neil Oliver’s excellent book called Not Forgotten which started me thinking on these lines:

“Memorials themselves....were springing up across the country. Monumental sculptors began to offer a range of ‘off the shelf’ designs to speed the process along........There was a lot of money to be made – by the end of it there were over 36,000 memorials in Britain.”

Now I could believe that the monuments at Aberbanc, Drefach, Pencader and Aberporth could have been made by the same local stone mason because there’s not more than about 30 miles between any of them, but Cowbridge is at least 90 miles away. That’s quite a distance in what was still essentially a horse and cart economy.

I wonder how far afield the face of this particular marble soldier is spread around the country? If anyone knows of any in their area please let me know.

[daggers]

Huw

I have looked through the Villages and Small Towns chapters of 'At the going down of the sun' by Derek Boorman which pictures many memorials, including some with soldiers in the same attitude, but they do not seem to be copies of those you have posted here. Nor do your place-names show up in the index.

By the way QUOTE: "both hands resting on the butt of an upturned rifle looking down reflectively " is the stance of 'Rest on your arms reversed', a specific drill movement, in which the muzzle is placed on the toe of the left boot, as shown.

D

[Huw Davies]

Huw

I have looked through the Villages and Small Towns chapters of 'At the going down of the sun' by Derek Boorman which pictures many memorials, including some with soldiers in the same attitude, but they do not seem to be copies of those you have posted here. Nor do your place-names show up in the index.

By the way QUOTE: "both hands resting on the butt of an upturned rifle looking down reflectively " is the stance of 'Rest on your arms reversed', a specific drill movement, in which the muzzle is placed on the toe of the left boot, as shown.

D

Many thanks for your trouble Daggers. I didn't know it was a drill movement before.

Huw

[geraint]

Your original posting set me thinking. Here in the Vale of Clwyd, I can't think of a single 'soldier sculpture' memorial. Ruthin's is a Celtic Cross, Denbigh a peace angel, and others in the nearby villages tend to be based on celtic designs, wreaths etc. I wonder if the trend was geographical to a far greater degee than one thinks. The mason often included his masonic marks discreetly on every sculpture. Can you identify the marks on yours?

Also - regarding the model - his is a very distinctive face, with traces of classical embelishments - the same sort of face to be seen on Roman and Renaissance sculptures, further copied in Victorian times on monumental cherubs (minus moustache) in cemeteries. I would think that it's a composite face made 'to order'!

[Hywyn]

Huw

Croeso yma

Steven John the owner of this in depth Carmarthenshire website

http://www.laugharnewarmemorial.co.uk/

is a member of this Forum. If he hasn't spotted your thread within a few days I'll send him a P(ersonal) (M)essage. I believe that you need to have 10 posts or more to use the facility so if you have those in the next day or so it may be worth dropping him a PM yourself.

Hywyn

[Huw Davies]

Your original posting set me thinking. Here in the Vale of Clwyd, I can't think of a single 'soldier sculpture' memorial. Ruthin's is a Celtic Cross, Denbigh a peace angel, and others in the nearby villages tend to be based on celtic designs, wreaths etc. I wonder if the trend was geographical to a far greater degee than one thinks. The mason often included his masonic marks discreetly on every sculpture. Can you identify the marks on yours?

Also - regarding the model - his is a very distinctive face, with traces of classical embelishments - the same sort of face to be seen on Roman and Renaissance sculptures, further copied in Victorian times on monumental cherubs (minus moustache) in cemeteries. I would think that it's a composite face made 'to order'!

I love the idea that the face of the soldier might be a fantasy, be a composite face from Roman, Renaissance and Victorian times, though not entirely convinced yet! But a very plausible explanation.

I've looked very closely at all the the statues and I couldn't find any marks that could identify the sculptor. I do know however that the Aberbanc and Drefach monuments are attributed by the UKNIWM to E J Jones and E Jones respectivley and they could be one and the same guy. However I suspect that they were local stonemason/s who designed and carved the names of the fallen on the plinth and "mail-ordered" the sculpture to go on top.

[keithmroberts]

Its highly likely that the dedication of the memorials is recorded with more information in the local papers.

Keith

[jay dubaya]

Huw,

the same soldier appears atop the Dale War Memorial, Pembrokeshire. The work was sculpted by Mr. Watcyn Jones of Llanybyther. A few miles up river is the Milford Haven War Memorial which has 3 standing figures one of which is a sailor and resembles the same soldier but without the tash, the memorial was sculpted by E. Jones, Llanybyther although the Airman was carved in Italy upon the request of the local Reverend Howells, I believe that the Airman was carved to the likeness of his son Edmund Howells who died in a flying accident during March 1918, a photo that I obtained of Edmund bears a very strong resemblance to the carving. This memorial has a few oddities but thats another story. The memorials in Neyland and Merlins Bridge are identical in their simple design but carry the names of 2 different sculptors and does go someway to indicate that there were several 'off the peg' designs that were deemed acceptable as war memorials.

Jon

[Huw Davies]

Huw

Croeso yma

Steven John the owner of this in depth Carmarthenshire website

http://www.laugharnewarmemorial.co.uk/

is a member of this Forum. If he hasn't spotted your thread within a few days I'll send him a P(ersonal) (M)essage. I believe that you need to have 10 posts or more to use the facility so if you have those in the next day or so it may be worth dropping him a PM yourself.

Hywyn

Diolch yn fawr am y croeso. Thanks for the info re. Steven Jones. I've had a quick look at his excellent website and I will get in touch with him.

[Huw Davies]

Huw,

the same soldier appears atop the Dale War Memorial, Pembrokeshire. The work was sculpted by Mr. Watcyn Jones of Llanybyther. A few miles up river is the Milford Haven War Memorial which has 3 standing figures one of which is a sailor and resembles the same soldier but without the tash, the memorial was sculpted by E. Jones, Llanybyther although the Airman was carved in Italy upon the request of the local Reverend Howells, I believe that the Airman was carved to the likeness of his son Edmund Howells who died in a flying accident during March 1918, a photo that I obtained of Edmund bears a very strong resemblance to the carving. This memorial has a few oddities but thats another story. The memorials in Neyland and Merlins Bridge are identical in their simple design but carry the names of 2 different sculptors and does go someway to indicate that there were several 'off the peg' designs that were deemed acceptable as war memorials.

Jon

Many thanks Jon, this is great. Now does this angelic face of a marble soldier indicate a regional industry of monumental stone masonry centred around Llanybydder? Did E Jones, E J Jones, and Watcyn Jones work for the same company.? At least now I have a place on which to concentrate enquiries! Many thanks!

Huw

[geraint]

Try your local Record Office for the turn of the century Business Directories for Llanybydder and Carmarthen. They would probably provide valuable info on E Jones, and give you further leads on to the business.

I've decided to see whether the same 'face' appears here in North Wales!

[Huw Davies]

Try your local Record Office for the turn of the century Business Directories for Llanybydder and Carmarthen. They would probably provide valuable info on E Jones, and give you further leads on to the business.

I've decided to see whether the same 'face' appears here in North Wales!

Shw mae Geraint,

I've now discovered an old newspaper clipping from the Tivy Side chronicling the unveiling of the memorial, Mr. E J Jones came from Glynarthen! Now little trip to that little Cradiganshire village should reveal a lot. I still think the statue is off the peg though, and it would be nice to know how widespread they are.

Huw