Bemused Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 Looking for a bit of help, I am researching a distant relative, William Milton, who was awarded 2 DSM's whilst on a Q Ship, Gaelic Q 22, I have tried the search facility but if I enter Q Ship, or anything similar I get an error as the search term is less than 2 characters, also the name of the ship "Gaelic" returns lots of posts about the language. I have a soft copy of "Q-Ships and their Story" by E Keble Chatterton, which mentions an action on 22 April 1917, in which the Gaelic saw off a submarine after a lengthy fight, my man was awarded his DSM on 27 Jul 1917 and Bar on 31 Aug 1917, is it likely that they were linked to the action or was there another event. Any help or clues most welcomed.
Bemused Posted 2 December , 2009 Author Posted 2 December , 2009 I can sort of answer my own question here, looking a bit harder at the Service Record for Bill I can see an entry saying " Approves the special advancement of this man to the rating of PO in in further recognition of his services in action on 23 Apr 1917". So it seems that his DSM was for this action, is it likely that he woud have got a Bar in the same action?
melliget Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 Hi. Sometimes a little black magic is required (sacrifice of small animals, etc.) to get the LG to give up its secrets. Sometimes names are listed in full, other times just initials for middle names or even first names, which is why a search like "William Milton" will not locate the right annoucements. I find a good first search is just on surname and service number, if known. This may be your man: Gazette Issue 30194 published on the 20 July 1917 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/301...upplements/7425 HONOURS FOR SERVICES IN ACTION WITH ENEMY SUBMARINES To receive the Distinguished Service Medal: — Ldg. Sea. William Charles Frederick Milton, O.N. 233535 (Dev.). Gazette Issue 30258 published on the 28 August 1917 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/302...upplements/8987 HONOURS FOB SERVICES IN ACTION WITH ENEMY SUBMARINES To receive a Bar to the Distinguished Service Medal:— Ldg. Sea. William Charles Frederick Milton, O.N. 233535 (Dev.). It says "submarines", so perhaps for that particular encounter and another around the same time? If this is him, here's his RN service record: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 Name: Milton, William Charles Frederick Official Number: 233535 Place of Birth: Cawsand, Cornwall Date: 10 December 1888 regards, Martin p.s. I don't know if it's a recent development but I notice you can copy and paste from the LG now. Or perhaps that was always the case and I just never noticed it.
SiegeGunner Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 I have tried the search facility but if I enter Q Ship, or anything similar I get an error as the search term is less than 2 characters, also the name of the ship "Gaelic" returns lots of posts about the language. Try the 'Beta Search' facility - three boxes to the left of the standard 'Search' tab.
Bemused Posted 2 December , 2009 Author Posted 2 December , 2009 Martin, many thanks for such a quick and complete response, some of the info I already had, some is new and welcome. I have since discovered via the wonder of the internet that the submarine in question was the UC 47 commanded by one Paul Hundias, my next challenge is to find a bt more detail, I have some from the book I mentioned in my first post, but it would be good to find out exactly what Bill did to earn the medals, the Gaelics commander, Lt G Irvine recieved the DSO for his part.
ph0ebus Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 Hi Bemused, Per uboat.net, re: UC 47: 18 Nov 1917 - Rammed by patrol boat P57 off Flamborough Head 54.00N 00.24E. 28 dead (all hands lost). The encounter between this u-boat and the Gaelic can be seen in summary here: http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/2344.html This is Paul Hundias: Anyone know who the two casualties aboard Gaelic were? -Daniel
ph0ebus Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 Sometimes a little black magic is required (sacrifice of small animals, etc.) to get the LG to give up its secrets. Truer words were never spoken, Martin. I recently tried to find a relative who was awarded the E.B.E. in the LG and even though he was listed by his name, searching by his name failed to find him via the LG search engine. Google actually was better at searching the LG than the LG search engine was! -Daniel
sadsac Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 Bemused ?? Join the crew !! Find here awards to crew (Officers) of GAELIC / Q.22 for one of the dates given ; ESDALE John N/E Lt. RNR 83P220 P.57 Vice Admiral East Coast of England 22.02.18 Gazetted Action with enemy submarines 18.11.17 DSC Rammed an enemy submarine on the 18th November, 1917. For services on the occasion of the destruction of an enemy submarine. He was Officer of the Watch at the time of sighting and ramming the submarine ; and personally released the first depth charge at the precise moment that the submarine passed under her stern. He also displayed commendable energy and resource in the subsequent operations. BERNIE Harry C N/E Lt.Cdr. RNR 83P220 P.57 Vice Admiral East Coast of England 22.02.18 Gazetted Action with enemy submarines 18.11.17 DSO Rammed an enemy submarine on the 18th November, 1917. He is deserving of the highest praise, not only for his own speedy and faultless attack ; but also for the high state of efficiency in a ship so recently commissioned. The measures taken by him to ensure accurate observation of the position during the following night are also considered seamanlike and praiseworthy. Sadsac
Bemused Posted 2 December , 2009 Author Posted 2 December , 2009 I referred to a book in my original question "Q Ships and their story" for anyone interested in this subject the book can be downloaded free from: http://www.archive.org/details/qshipstheirstory00chat John
Michael Lowrey Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 The casualties in the April 22, 1917 action: CLARKE, Mark E, Deck Hand, RNR, SD 82 COULET, Leopold, Deck Hand, RNR, SD 13 The German official history states that UC 47 broken off the action because of darkness. The submarine was undamaged in the engagement. Best wishes, Michael
daggers Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 Can anyone remember the title of a book by Campbell, one of the Q Ship pioneers? [VC?] I had it many years ago and a rattling good yarn it was.
Philip Wilson Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 Looking for a bit of help, I am researching a distant relative, William Milton, who was awarded 2 DSM's whilst on a Q Ship, Gaelic Q 22, I have tried the search facility but if I enter Q Ship, or anything similar I get an error as the search term is less than 2 characters, also the name of the ship "Gaelic" returns lots of posts about the language. I have a soft copy of "Q-Ships and their Story" by E Keble Chatterton, which mentions an action on 22 April 1917, in which the Gaelic saw off a submarine after a lengthy fight, my man was awarded his DSM on 27 Jul 1917 and Bar on 31 Aug 1917, is it likely that they were linked to the action or was there another event. Any help or clues most welcomed. The fundemental principle of the Q Ship was to deceive the enemy by presenting a seemingly harmless prey, by way of deception. In 1916 the Gaelic, Q22 was a 224 ton barquentine, belonging to W.Thomas & Sons of Amlwch, Anglesey. See also Q Ships and Decoy Raiders by Tony Bridgeland. Philip
Bemused Posted 2 December , 2009 Author Posted 2 December , 2009 "My Mystery Ships" You can read some/most or perhaps all of it at: http://www.vlib.us/wwi/resources/mymysteryships.html John
daggers Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 That's the one - I wonder if it is the loft???
ph0ebus Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 The best newspaper headline I ever read regarding Q-Ships: "'BABY' EXPLODED AND SANK U-BOAT; "Woman" on Attacked Vessel Hurled the Supposed Infant Into Submarine's Hatch." http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...FBE668383609EDE -Daniel
phil@basildon Posted 2 December , 2009 Posted 2 December , 2009 It may interest you to know that a vessel that was used as a Q-Ship is now preserved. This is the schooner 'Result' which now resides at the Ulster Folk Museum. She operated as Q-23.
ph0ebus Posted 3 December , 2009 Posted 3 December , 2009 It may interest you to know that a vessel that was used as a Q-Ship is now preserved. This is the schooner 'Result' which now resides at the Ulster Folk Museum. She operated as Q-23. Aye, she's seen better days! And I see she used to be tied up in Exeter; 1/4 of my family's from there....lovely town, especially down by the Quay. -Daniel
sadsac Posted 3 December , 2009 Posted 3 December , 2009 Bemused here are awards to crew of Gaelic for action 22 Appril 1917 ; GRAY George H.C N/E Skipper RNR 83P081 Gaelic Vice Admiral Milford Haven 20.07.17 Gazetted Actions with enemy Submarines 22.04.17 DSC Engaged an enemy submarine for 1½ hours on the 22nd April, 1917. Two of the crew were killed and four wounded. The officers and men showed conspicuous gallantry and coolness during a prolonged encounter. Was in a ship which engaged an enemy submarine on 22 April, 1917 - see above - Irvine. Their Lordships' appreciation expressed. IRVINE George N/E Lt. RNR 83P081 Gaelic Vice Admiral Milford Haven 20.07.17 Gazetted Actions with enemy Submarines 22.04.17 DSO Engaged an enemy submarine for 1½ hours on the 22nd April, 1917. Two of the crew were killed and four wounded. The officers and men showed conspicuous gallantry and coolness during a prolonged encounter. Their Lordships' appreciation expressed. Sadsac
melliget Posted 3 December , 2009 Posted 3 December , 2009 The National Archives has two ADM 53 records (ship's logs) that may be the Q-Ship GAELIC: ADM 53/42326: 1917 Oct. 9 - 1918 Feb. 26 ADM 53/42327: 1918 July 23 - 1918 Oct. 6 There are some articles in The Times on other Q-ships, incl. the Result, but I couldn't locate any on the Gaelic (doesn't mean they aren't there, somewhere). Martin
Lörscher Posted 3 December , 2009 Posted 3 December , 2009 Bemused, here are the encounters of GAELIC which I know of: 22.04.1917 = UC 47, Gaelic was damaged 26.06.1917 = UC 44, Gaelic was damaged 02.07.1917 = UC 44 again (!), the german watch-officer Oblt.z.S. Pantel was killed 29.05.1917 = UB 50, Gaelic under the name "Brig 11" 30.05.1917 = UB 50 missed Gaelic with one torpedo Cheers Oliver
Bemused Posted 11 January , 2010 Author Posted 11 January , 2010 Thanks to everyone for all the inofrmation provided. Assuming the weather doesnt get any worse I asm off to the NA this week to dig a bit more on this and a few other distant relatives. In William Miltons service record which hopefully I have attached a bit of it refers to: A.W.O. 2765 of 27.7.17 Awarded "DSM" A.W.O. 3171 of 31.8.17 Awarded "Bar to DSM" I'm assuming that these refer to a document of some sort but having searched the on line bit of the Archive and cant find anything. Can anyone shed any light on what an A.W.O. is?
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