HMS Andes

[mblackwell]

Hello, I would very much appreciate comments about an accident that occurred on HMS Andes in 1917. I'll give the brief details first and then give the questions I'd like help on.

1917, AB Bernard Kirby RNVR was serving on the HMS Andes while it was in the Graving dry dock in Liverpool. In the early hours of the morning of 3 August 1917, Bernard fell from the port side of the well deck (fore part) of the ship down to the dock floor. In the log of the HMS Andes for the date it states succinctly: “1.45 am AB Kirby fell into dry dock from P. side well deck fore part.” and then “2.25 am AB Kirby taken to Stanley Hospital.” (PRO ADM 53/33655). Bernard sustained multiple fractures of the spine and pelvis and spent the rest of his life as a paraplegic.

1. It was said in the family that someone had left a coil of rope in the wrong place and that in the dark Bernard had tripped over it. But is this likely? Or even possible?

2. If it were unlikely that he could have fallen overboard as the result of a simple trip--what are other possible explanations? Is it significant that he was walking on deck at 1.45 am?

3. Are there likely to be any papers relating to this incident other than the terse logbook entry?

Many thanks

[chrissparrow]

Hi Michael,

All I can tell you is that HMS Andes was a big armed merchant cruiser. It would have been quite a fall.

Chris

[melliget]

Hi Michael.

Welcome. I take it his service record doesn't provide any clues? This looks to be it.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

Yes, I would think it's possible that something like a rope or something else could have been left where it shouldn't have been and difficult to see at night. Being in the graving dock for maintenance or repairs, there could have items on the decks associated with the work that were not normally there.

Other than tripping over something because of the dark, I guess intoxication is also a possibility, particularly given the late hour. With the ship confined to shore whilst work was being done, there was probably opportunity for shore leave and, sailors being sailors, no doubt many visited the pubs and clubs of Liverpool. Even slight intoxication could have affected his judgement, particularly at night.

I'm not familiar with RN ships' logs but I would have expected perhaps a little more info than what you found given the seriousness of the injuries. Although it was wartime - such an incident might have prompted some sort of investigation in peacetime but there was probably little time so they recorded the accident and that was that.

regards,

Martin

[centurion]

 there was probably opportunity for shore leave 

I think it was common practice when a ship was in dry dock (and with the engines shut down having no power or lighting) for most of the crew to be taken out of her leaving a small number to ensure that items and material on board did not 'walk' out of the dockyard. Bernard could have been on patrol in the early morning.

[michaeldr]

I wonder if this incident is covered in the journal referred to here

see http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/sea...ew.asp?ID=D2175

[mblackwell]

I wonder if this incident is covered in the journal referred to here

see http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/sea...ew.asp?ID=D2175

Thanks for this--I'll try and get to Liverpool one time to follow it up.

[mblackwell]

Martin--many thanks for your comments. I guess my more specific question is: if a 5'6" man tripped over a rope could he conceivably have gtone over the edge? Would there not have been some guard rail or side that would have prevented it?

Yes, I would think it's possible that something like a rope or something else could have been left where it shouldn't have been and difficult to see at night. Being in the graving dock for maintenance or repairs, there could have items on the decks associated with the work that were not normally there.

[centurion]

Martin--many thanks for your comments. I guess my more specific question is: if a 5'6" man tripped over a rope could he conceivably have gtone over the edge? Would there not have been some guard rail or side that would have prevented it?

A much bigger risk would be pieces of  pipe left on the deck. I can remember inspecting a 22nd floor flat under refurbishment in Mumbai, the big picture window was missing and the floor was littered with pieces of copper pipe off cut from the new water system. Two days later a workman went out of the window of an adjacent flat, he'd trodden on a piece of pipe and skidded right out.

One would expect guard rails but he fell from the side well deck which was where guns on auxiliary cruisers were often mounted and rails were sometimes cut away to allow free movement of the gun barrel.

Pure speculation of course but it seems to work.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I'm not familiar with RN ships' logs but I would have expected perhaps a little more info than what you found given the seriousness of the injuries. Although it was wartime - such an incident might have prompted some sort of investigation in peacetime but there was probably little time so they recorded the accident and that was that.

The log would only be one of many documents regarding this incident, but the ones that survive are the navigation logs. The service record may refer to other letters, and there are probably entries in the ADM 12 indexes and digests. The letters may have been weeded, but the digest entries would survive.

UK National Archives Research Guide How to use the Admiralty Index and Digest: ADM 12

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...?sLeafletID=380

[chrissparrow]

It is possible that they worked through the night at these times of war? Can anyone confirm this? I think it is as likely that this was a working accident as a careless night time or booze related one. Workplaces were dangerous in those days - no health and safety rules. I have an officer on my 'list' who was killed in a coaling accident. Local newspapers?

Chris

[centurion]

It is possible that they worked through the night at these times of war? Can anyone confirm this? I think it is as likely that this was a working accident as a careless night time or booze related one. 

 However as the ship was in dry dock it is likely that any work would be done by specialised shipyard workers rather than members of the crew.

[SiegeGunner]

Assuming that he received a disability pension, would there be a file detailing the circumstances of the incident, the nature of his injuries, and perhaps an appraisal of whether his own conduct was in any way a contributory factor?

[David B]

Dockers work at night ? you''ve got to be joking. Normal practice was for most of the crew to be accommodated ashore, with duty watch or dockyard doing rounds during

the night. It is also possible that the guard rail(s) were down to facilitate bosuns chairs etc to be rigged over the side also for cranes to swing materials on board

with ease. Even though the person was critically injured and crippled for life it is a wonder he survived at all. A ship that size would probably have a draft of at

least 20 feet, plus the height of the ships side, plus the size of the blocks the ship is resting on - a distance of probably upwards of 60 feet onto hard concrete.

Not nice.

David

[melliget]

I have an officer on my 'list' who was killed in a coaling accident. Local newspapers?

Chris.

So as to not hijack this thread, perhaps start another and provide name, etc. of the officer involved. Someone might already have info on him or be able to dig up something.

regards,

Martin

[chrissparrow]

Thanks Martin,

But won't start as he was pre-great war! 1908.

Chris

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Workplaces were dangerous in those days - no health and safety rules.

Workplaces were extremely dangerous in those days, they had a lot of equipment and procedures that were far more threatening than most workplace have now. But contrary to popular opinion they also had health and safety rules too. Even with all the risk assessments and health and safety rules in the world accidents still happen; especially at night during a refit.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

But won't start as he was pre-great war! 1908.

The methods are similar for pre war and you benefit from less censorship. Local newspapers and the Admiralty Correspondence (Indexed and Digested in ADM 12) are good places to start.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Assuming that he received a disability pension, would there be a file detailing the circumstances of the incident, the nature of his injuries, and perhaps an appraisal of whether his own conduct was in any way a contributory factor?

There would have been a file or at the very least correspondence, which would have been indexed & digested (see ADM 12). Whether it has survived is another matter. Are there any references to him in the PIN records at Kew?

[mblackwell]

There would have been a file or at the very least correspondence, which would have been indexed & digested (see ADM 12). Whether it has survived is another matter. Are there any references to him in the PIN records at Kew?

Thanks to everyone for replies to my original post--they have been very useful & given me some leads for future research.

Michael

[melliget]

Are there any references to him in the PIN records at Kew?

No, doesn't seem to be. A search for KIRBY in the PIN series returns just 15 items. One initially looked promising, based on name and year range, but he was an officer, probably Captain Bernard Burrowd Kirby (Gloucestershire Regt):

Piece PIN 26/21915

[mblackwell]

No, doesn't seem to be. A search for KIRBY in the PIN series returns just 15 items. One initially looked promising, based on name and year range, but he was an officer, probably Captain Bernard Burrowd Kirby (Gloucestershire Regt):

Piece PIN 26/21915

Thanks for doing this Martin. I don't suppose it helps knowing that his pension number (given on his naval record) was 11533?

[melliget]

It may help for someone who knows about the pension records but a quick search on that didn't turn up anything.

Here's the research guide on Royal Navy Pension Records (Ratings). Section 4, Wounds and Disability Pensions.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...p?sLeafletID=41

I notice a couple of mentions of a "sample" of records. Perhaps some of this series have been weeded similar to the series Per Ardua mentioned.

Martin