.303 magazine chargers

[onesearch]

Hello all,

Just a quick & hopefully simple question or two to the forum about loading .303 ammunition into charger clips.

What was the logistical sequence to this & how did the loaded chargers get distributed to the men in the line. I have seen references that state SAA was issued as a trench store & I assumed this was boxed up in transit containers for loading locally but on considering it further I thought that perhaps the rounds were put into chargers away from the line thus encouraging uniformity, but then transporting filled chargers might not be that easy?

Then I was wondering about all the used chargers...........would these have been re used there & then (bit risky with dirt & damage} or were the men judged to be competent in only loading suitable ones) then there was the bone of contention about the position of the rims to give smooth easy feeding, or were they collected up & sent rearwards for cleaning/sorting & re-use or would they simply be gathered up & melted down as scrap?

Battalion marksmen often used ammunition that was batch selected & as such quantities of it were kept by the section for use by them alone. Do members think that they would have been responsible for preparing their own chargers ?

regards

Rod

[TonyE]

.303 ammunition was packed in a number of ways, depending on the use.

For infantry the ammo was packed in wooden crates holding 1000 rounds, either in paper bundles of ten rounds tied with string (the way ammuntion had been issued for many years) or in 20 round boxes with four chargers of five. These boxes were known as "Cases, Charger, .303" and as you can imagine, millions of them were ordered.

The best method though of issuing .303 ammunition to the troops was pre-packed in chargers in cotton 50 round bandoliers, and this was how it was normally issued prior to an attack.

Later in the war .303 was also provided loose in 48 round boxes called "Cases, Cardboard, .303 inch cartridges", but this was primarily for filling machine gun belts.

The chargers were filled by hand in the UK, and there was only one correct way to fill them, down-up-down-up-down (DUDUD). No contention there!

Initially they were filled at Woolwich, but the Ministry of Munitions built a packing and distribution depot at Park Royal on the A40. It was demolished a few years ago, but it will have been familiar to many of you driving on the A40 in London as the BBC rehearsal studios just before the Hangar Lane junction.

I should imagine the great majority of chargers were lost in the trenches, but it would not surprise me if the more experienced soldiers kept well used ones as they would have been much smoother to use.

There must have been some at least that were returned to depot as I have details of contracts let to companies for repairing chargers. In one case for half a million chargers.

As for the battalion marksmen, they certainly selected their ammunition and kept hold of particularly accurate lots, often made by Kings Norton Metals and Munitions Co., who were acknowledged to have made the best ammuntion. I am sure they would have loaded their own chargers when necessary, but snipers and marksmen probably loaded their rounds either singly or individually into the magazine.

WWI ammunition packaging is extremely hard to find these days, and whilst I have some paper bundle wrappers and some later "Cases, Charger", I have never seen an original WWI example. I was fortunate recently to also pick up a WWI cotton bandolier.

Regards

TonyE

[onesearch]

Tony,

many thanks for your prompt & comprehensive answer, much appreciated & most interesting,

best regards

Rod

[4thGordons]

TonyE - somewhat idle curiosity - do you know why the design of the charger's changed from the elongated "rectangular" holes to the later circular? Was it just a maufacturing change or were there reports from the field about weakness or dirt or....?

Chris

[TonyE]

The dates of introduction and LoC Paras. for chargers were:

Mark I LoC 11753 16 Jan 1903

Mark II LoC 13465 24 April 1906, said to be strengthened by the addition of three ridges on the base.

Mark III LoC 18973 15 Feb 1916, "...having circular pips and lightening holes and no ribs across the bottom".

Mark IV LoC 19786 20 Oct 1917. "Differs ....in having four holes in the sides instead of five, which leaves more room for the spring in the lug end, and makes it less stiff".

That is about the best I can do Chris.

Cheers

TonyE

[MikB]

The best method though of issuing .303 ammunition to the troops was pre-packed in chargers in cotton 50 round bandoliers, and this was how it was normally issued prior to an attack.

...

The chargers were filled by hand in the UK, and there was only one correct way to fill them, down-up-down-up-down (DUDUD). No contention there!

Regards

TonyE

When I was a cadet in the '60s, most of our 303 was RG57 and 58 packed in 50rd cotton bandoliers, 6 per 300rd box. Maybe packing standards slackened after the wars, but our chargers were certainly not reliably loaded 3 down - 2 up. We had to set them up ourselves - as issued, the rim sequence was more-or-less random.

Regards,

MikB

[philtaylor]

In well used slack chargers the configuration of the rounds possbily slipped, as cadets ( I wonder how many members were actually issued .303's on active service) we were told to briefly check before loading.

[MikB]

In well used slack chargers the configuration of the rounds possbily slipped, as cadets ( I wonder how many members were actually issued .303's on active service) we were told to briefly check before loading.

IIRC the chargers were as new as the rounds, just filled any old how...

Regards,

MikB

[59165]

Not exactly what you were looking for,Tony but,this lot of ten are for rifle grenades or the Burns cup.

This was found with all of the loose ones you saw at Chantal's so,lucky to have survived it's 90 year burial.

Dave.

[Tony Ring]

Is it common to find the remains of chargers or as we call them down here "clips" in the trenches etc ? In the photographs I have seen posted no one has mentioned chargers.

When loading the 303 under fire the last thing that you would worry about is keeping your charger from dropping down onto the ground and becoming lost in the mud.

In my youth I had a 303 Jungle Carbine for shooting deer and used to carry an average of 3 - 4 clips. When reloading in a hurry I lost quite a few clips over the years so resorted to hand loading the magazine before I graduated to a 30 30 cowboy rifle - John Wayne style.

Tony

[TonyE]

Thanks Dave, it is great that the packet has survived.

Is it possible to read the printing? I am interested in what the cartridges are described as. Also what is the date?

Cheers

TonyE

[hudsonswhistle]

Thanks Dave, it is great that the packet has survived.

Is it possible to read the printing? I am interested in what the cartridges are described as. Also what is the date?

Cheers

TonyE

Tony i will have a look for you, as i now own this lot

[TonyE]

Many thanks. I would also be interested in how the mouths of the cases are sealed. Cork wad, lacquered card etc.?

There were a number of those early grenade discharger cartridges and identifying them once outside of their original packet is almost impossible.

Regards

TonyE

[hudsonswhistle]

Tony had a look their is writing on the packet but I'm afraid most of it is ineligible,however i can make out the following

C A H ? ? 19??

303 I?

Mark V?

??bulle?

removed one from its packet ,markings on the bottom are

R16 L

VI

the mouths appear to be filled with a waxy substance

p.s if Dave hasn't already given you one of these,then please pm me and ill be more than happy to send you one

Regards Alan

[TonyE]

Hi Alan

I think your interpretation of the label is probably enough to identify the rounds.

I think they are "Cartridge SA .303 inch Rifle Grenade 37 1/2 grains Cordite MDT Size 5-2 Mark I", that mouthful simply meaning they are standerd ball rounds with the bullet removed and the neck filled with tallow. They were the very first discharger cartidges introduced in 1916 for rodded grenades. The fact that they have been made from Mark VI ball rounds is also a clue.

The label probably said something like:

10

CARTS DISCHARGER

.303 inch MARK I

BALL MARK VI

WITHOUT BULLET

Unfortunately I have never seen a grenade discharger packet that early.

I would very much like one of the rounds, but of course they cannot go through the post. Drop me a PM and we can sort something out. I am in South London.

Thanks

TonyE

[dman]

.303 ammunition was packed in a number of ways, depending on the use.

The chargers were filled by hand in the UK, and there was only one correct way to fill them, down-up-down-up-down (DUDUD). No contention there!

Initially they were filled at Woolwich, but the Ministry of Munitions built a packing and distribution depot at Park Royal on the A40. It was demolished a few years ago, but it will have been familiar to many of you driving on the A40 in London as the BBC rehearsal studios just before the Hangar Lane junction.

Because 303 ammunition was rimmed heard that the ammunition had to be carefully arranged so that

the rims would not foul each other and cause a jam

[Thunderbox]

Because 303 ammunition was rimmed heard that the ammunition had to be carefully arranged so that

the rims would not foul each other and cause a jam

No, thats incorrect. The Lee Enfield magazine is designed in such a way that rounds from a charger tilt base-downward as they enter the magazine. Because of this, they automatically sort themselves out rim in front of rim.

The "two up three down" stacking of rounds ("_ - _ - _ ") in the charger simply provides a symmetrical load for packing, and handling (eg the "feel" is identical whichever way up the charger is inserted into the rifle - eg at night).

In fact, the rounds can be placed in any rim order in the charger, and they will still load correctly into the rifle magazine. A common variation favoured by some target shooters was with all rounds pointing the same way, or a "\ \ \ \ \" arrangement of the rims. This was supposed to give a smoother load, but in practice seems to make no difference.

Where rim jams do occur, its usually because the modern civilian shooter has been a bit feeble when stripping the rounds into the magazine.....

[MikB]

No, thats incorrect. The Lee Enfield magazine is designed in such a way that rounds from a charger tilt base-downward as they enter the magazine. Because of this, they automatically sort themselves out rim in front of rim.

The "two up three down" stacking of rounds ("_ - _ - _ ") in the charger simply provides a symmetrical load for packing, and handling (eg the "feel" is identical whichever way up the charger is inserted into the rifle - eg at night).

In fact, the rounds can be placed in any rim order in the charger, and they will still load correctly into the rifle magazine. A common variation favoured by some target shooters was with all rounds pointing the same way, or a "\ \ \ \ \" arrangement of the rims. This was supposed to give a smoother load, but in practice seems to make no difference.

Where rim jams do occur, its usually because the modern civilian shooter has been a bit feeble when stripping the rounds into the magazine.....

It's true that a 'rim-over-rim' stoppage is something in the Bren gun book, not the Lee-Enfield. And when as a teenage cadet I once tried loading a charger with its as-packed random rim arrangement, the rounds fed without a problem.

There is, of course, the occasional dead man's click when the bolt way is loose enough to allow the bolt head to override the rim of a round and close on an empty chamber, and I believe that anecdotally this is believed most frequently to affect the second-last round in the mag - it certainly does in my SMLE - but this doesn't have anything much to do with rim sequence, or this shooter's enfeebled civilian thumb AFAIK...

Regards,

MikB