Submarines G11 & J6

[Signals]

Hi All,

does anyone have survivors for the submarine J6 & G11?

Hard to find.

Cheers DB

[Wrecktec]

G11

The body of Stoker Foster was never recovered and he is now remembered on the Plymouth Naval Memorial and Telegraphist George Philip Back’s corpse was later recovered and buried in the southwest corner of the sleepy little churchyard of St Peter’s at Longhoughton, in Northumberland and near to where he was washed ashore.) All of the other crewmen were safely ashore

The following were the fifteen men lost with HM S/M J6:

Armstrong, Ernest William M/12905 E.R. Artificer.3rd

Brierley, James Roger Ingham, Sub-Lieutenant

Bright, C.T. Artificer Engineer

Burwell, Herbert Edward Philip M/3779 E.R.Artificer.4th

Hill, Arthur Herbert J/5428 Able Seaman

Lamont, Athol Davaar M/14927 E.R. Artificer.3rd

Rayner, Edward George J/5764 Leading Seaman

Russell, William Thomas J/28769 Able Seaman

Savidge, Albert Edward K/19992 Stoker.1st

Stevenson, Percival James P/K 1628 L/Stoker

Tachon, Philip K/20794 Stoker 1st Class

Thompson, William Piper K/23871Stoker.1st

Tyler, Frank Andrew J/2116 Able Seaman

White, Henry Thomas J/13130 Able Seaman

Wickstead, George Herbert J/31563 Leading Telegraphist

Sadsac can probably surply the survivor's name?

Cheers Ron

[sadsac]

DB, 4 of survivors re J6 - more later.

RON - I have 16 lost re J6 - add ?? ;

SEXTON Henry Percy Boy Tel J 58647

Commemorated Portsmouth 29 - 7 - 558

ACOTT Alfred J Sto

BYSOUTH David Y AB

DEASY Dennis AB

GROVES Phillip PO TGM

Sadsac

[Wrecktec]

Thanks a lot Sadsac

I will add him to my database, much appreciated

Cheers Ron

[Clio]

Admiralty rarely listed survivors. And when they did, the lists were scarcely accurate.

[sadsac]

RON - you are welcome to info. Will be putting all survivors I have on here if your require.

When cometh your next book ??

CLIO - quite agree, `losts' are readily available - but survivors ??? I take these from their dates of service in the boats.

DB - here are 4 more ;

HOLT HAROLD AB D/J 21184

KNIBE SIDNEY E STO C/K 13381

NOAKES FREDERICK W PO LTO D/J 18834 WOUNDED J6

PHILLIPS ALFRED A E CPO TC D 228052

Sadsac

[Wrecktec]

RON - you are welcome to info. Will be putting all survivors I have on here if your require.

When cometh your next book ??

Sadsac

Hi Sadsac

The book, 'Silent Warriors Volume 3 - Wales and the West', has been at the publishers, The History Press for months now, but it is when they get their fingers out, not sure if they have been affected by the credit crunch, no one has been in touch

Cheers Ron

[Signals]

Hi Sadsac,

thanks for those thus far. I guess there is no official list via the sinking inquiry, do you get these from you long list of names?

As for going GA GA per the C Class crew thread, do you remember meeting me in August at Kew?

Cheers DB

[sadsac]

Hello DB, yes, I do remember meeting you at Kew, and I regret very much not being able to meet you next day & PM.

Wished to bore you muchly re boats etc + `fire a few down' - at YOUR cost !! Had to return home !!

I take these from my file of Service Record Cards - dates of when they were on / in a boat.

Please NOTE for KnibE read KNIBB - Ga - Ga cometh

KNIBB SIDNEY E STO C/K 13381

WARBURTON GEOFFREY LT

HALL HAROLD AB D/J 21184

PRESTON JOHN S STO C/K 17085 HOSPITAL J6

RAWLINGS ALBERT E STO P 303854

SEYMOUR GEORGE STO1 C/K 24204

That concludes the `certain' survivors - have some `not-certain' and will post them later.

Am now thinking of making up a FULL list of survivors re sinkings & put in WNSF & this ??

What think you ??

Sadsac

[Signals]

Hi Sadac,

good to know you have't gone ga ga, i do have a an urge to hit Kew again next year, so could meet up at the HQ.

Sound like a good idea, survivors can be hard to find, as with my great grandfather, they seem to slip through all corespondance.

Thanks for the latest!

Cheers DB

[Signals]

Sorry,

yes i did pick up the Knibbs chap, he was the brother of E8's Baltic Knibbs, they had 5 Knibbs brothers in the Navy during the war.

DB

[melliget]

Admiralty rarely listed survivors. And when they did, the lists were scarcely accurate.

I wouldn't say rarely, Clio. But the practice wasn't always adhered to and was certainly more common in the earlier years of the war. The accuracy probably wasn't always 100% but, in my experience with The Times, the Admiralty lists were more reliable than the general reports of maritime deaths. They often published subsequent corrections to the initial lists. The lists for ratings sometimes, but not always, included official numbers so cross-checks can be done with ADM 188. When survivor lists weren't published, sometimes partial survivor lists could be gleaned from lists of wounded and those rescued and taken prisoner.

Here's an example. Separate to the casualty list for HMS Vanguard, which sunk after an internal explosion at Scapa Flow 9 July 1917, The Times published the following Admiralty list of surviving officers and men 14 July 1917.

Martin

[Clio]

I can confirm that the official reports into G11 and J6 list casualties but there is no listing of survivors. You can pick up names by reading the text but you only end up with a handful - mainly officers.

From long and bitter experience I have no faith in the lists reproduced in the Times (unless supported by primary documentation). If you want to know why, try researching Pathfinder from that organ of integrity.

[sadsac]

DB, here are some chaps that MAY have been survivors of J6.

They all fit in a `rough' time scale when the boat was sunk.

LUFF JAMES PO LTO P/J 10625 NOTED AS ADDITIONAL J6

WARNER LEONARD B TEL D/J 60705 NOTED AS J6/G3

BURTENSHAW ALFRED J SIG 226545 NOTED J6 AFTER E9 BALTIC

GREEN HERBERT B C PO LTO D/J 211866 J6 HOSPITAL 180930

HOCKRIDGE ???

Now must fit all the ratings I have mentioned, along with those lost to see if they make up a full crew for a `J' Class boat (war service). Can you add-up ???

G11 will be next lot.

Be pleased to meet next year if / when you attend HQQ !!

Sadsac

[Signals]

Hi Sadsac,

just checked the papers of Burthenshaw, he was gone from J6 before this, his old mate Horton had already given him the call to join the M1 on the books of Dolphin around April 1918.

Cheers DB

[sadsac]

OK Darren, will remove BURTENSHAW from my `maybe crew' list of survivors of J6.

Find here some of the survivors of G11, as requested. These are DEFINATE as being survs - if the Serice Record Card is correct !!??

MACLURE FREDERICK LT

BRADSHAW GEORGE F LTCDR

SMITH C A LT

BIRCH GEORGE AB

PALMER WILLIAM PO COX

BEARD JOSEPH A CERA P 42598

COOK GEORGE H AB P/K 12811

COSTICK JAMES LS C 236338

CROZIER THOMAS AB C/J 2976

CUTTS ERNEST ERA C/M 438

Sadsac

[Signals]

Hi Sadac, thanks for those. Any ideas on numbers for Palmer & Birch?

Cheers DB

[Guest wallywalker]

Brand new to GWF - This is my first posting so hope I get it right:

I noticed the interest in the submarine J6 and wanted to write as I too share an interest in that particular boat: My own interset stems from the fact that one of my ancestors went down with her when she was sunk by "friendly fire" on October 15th 1918

The sailor in question was Stoker 1st Class Albert Edward Savidge (K/19992)

The reason that I am writing is that I have obtained a copy of the Minutes from the Board of Enquiry that was held after the incident: It is a very detailed transcript of the proceedings including witness statements / questions and answers etc. at the hearing (Names and ranks are all listed) from the survivors from J6

If anyone would be interested in having a copy of these Minutes I would be only too happy to copy them off and get them sent to you

If you could contact me on my E mail address:- alan666@blueyonder.co.uk I will happily see what we can arrange

There's no fee involved in anything so it's not a catch or an attempted con - - I'd be only too happy to help out if I can

Thank you

Alan Walker (Essex)

[Wrecktec]

Just as a matter of interest - J6 was located recently

Cheers Ron

[Signals]

Hi Sadsac,

we looked at this topic some time back, and I have had to deal with several people probing questions at me re the sinking of J6, and her survivors.

Their quoted reference is always http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1918-10Oct.htm

I have written to them to correct this as it seems it has been compiled from your MAYBE list from this thread, in other words, not researched properly at all as I can tell you some of these men were certainly NOT with J6 when lost. But it still stands incorrect today, and it is still quoted as fact when the truth is there is no such survivors list. As you know Sadsac, I have all the papers of these men, and as you would also know, I am also correct with this information. But now it is set in concrete and people use these incorrect references it is hard to sway the masses. The website in question would be far better just to remove the survivor list rather than have it there as is not doing history the respect it needs.

D

[submarine]

Well said DB I agree whole heatedly .

Colin

[sadsac]

As with Colin I quite agree DB.

Do not wish to entirely denigrate the site, which largely has great information contained in it, but like all things, little `mistooks' tend to creep in.

One for that site & the J6 survivors list that you refer to is ; WARNER Leonard No. D/0705 should read WARNER D/J 60705.

Perhaps the site `MODS' will take notice after your input !!!!!!!!

Sadsac

[Terence Munson]

Darren,

I must say I am surprised that you have not had any response from naval-history.net to your letter

regarding the J6 list. The lists are the work of US researcher Don Kindell, a member of this forum (Kin47).

I have found him to be very responsive to queries (PM and email), on several occasions in the past and I

have the utmost respect for the quality of his research, most of which I believe is from primary sources,

but alas even those are not 100% reliable.

Looking at Don's profile, I note he has not been active since May '12. Hopefully because he is busy.

So worth a PM I would have thought.

Terry

[Signals]

Hi Terry,

sent you a PM, my attitude is unless you do it yourself quesion it as everyone makes errors. The interent has been great to us in that it has opened up a whole new world for researches, but the problem is people collecting data are cutting and pasting it as fact, no reference, and on it goes to other websites as fact. From this point people like myself have to hand over years of reseach just to prove this website was wrong, but now i think it should be provide the evidence yourself to prove what you have written.

Not sure what Primary source you speak of here as it is clearly not mentioned so hard to see the error as more an issue of not researching the topic, which it should be even if taken from the mens papers. I can also see the list of men kiiled in Submarine A7 is incorrect as well, but this same list is copied everywhere as well. Last time at Kew i sat with one of England's most well know faces in regards to Naval History, and when the topic of WW2 HMAS Sydney came up, well i was told the recent photos of her wreck put out by the Australian goverment were in fact not her, and this is from probabily the most respected person in his field, again, trust your own reseach.

D

[sadsac]

Darren, after looking at the list by Naval-History I see that there is another `mistook' ;

For Northan John 304854 should read 304857.

Sadsac