nareynolds Posted 22 November , 2009 Posted 22 November , 2009 I recently visited 'Rifle Wood' near Hourges on the Somme which, thanks to pmaasz on the forum I was able to confirm as the place where my great grandfather Frank West was killed in action. It was a very moving visit on an unusually bright and sunny November day. We moved on soon afterwards to visit Pozieres Cemetary where Frank's sacrifice is commemorated. Nicola
stephen p nunn Posted 22 November , 2009 Posted 22 November , 2009 I recently visited 'Rifle Wood' near Hourges on the Somme which, thanks to pmaasz on the forum I was able to confirm as the place where my great grandfather Frank West was killed in action. It was a very moving visit on an unusually bright and sunny November day. We moved on soon afterwards to visit Pozieres Cemetary where Frank's sacrifice is commemorated. Nicola Fantastic Nicola - I bet it was very moving indeed. RIP Frank and thanks for what you did for our freedom. Regards. SPN Maldon
pmaasz Posted 23 November , 2009 Posted 23 November , 2009 Nicola: Thanks for your kind words. I would be very pleased to hear from anyone interested in the battle for Rifle Wood, 1st April 1918. (Two days after the battle for Moreuil Wood.) I have done a lot of research on it. The regiments taking part in the attack were 3rd (KO) Hussars; Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars; 20th Hussars; 12th Royal Lancers; Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry), and the Canadian Cavalry Brigade: Fort Garry Horse, Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), and Royal Canadian Dragoons. Units in support were 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers), Royal Scots Greys, Royal Horse Artillery, 2nd Field Regt. Royal Engineers. Relieving units were 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, 7th (Princess Royal's) Dragoon Guards and 7th Battln Rifle Brigade. There is now a memorial not far from Rifle Wood on the southeast side, erected by the Canadians in 2004 to remember their men who died at Moreuil and Rifle Woods, and which includes a plaque commemorating the QOOH men. The Canadians have regular tour/remembrance visits, usually I think in August. The OY Trust and Association visits are less frequent but are usually around the anniversary of the battle. There is always a large and very touching turnout of local mayors and other French people, members of the Luce/Maple-Leaf Association, and an honour guard of French veterans. Rifle Wood itself is not accessible without permission from the landowner.
cockney tone Posted 23 November , 2009 Posted 23 November , 2009 Nicola, would you have any photos of your trip that you could share with us please? Glad you had an enjoyable visit to pay your respects. Regards, Scottie.
nareynolds Posted 23 November , 2009 Author Posted 23 November , 2009 Happy to share some photos although I haven't quite mastered uploading images. Some of them seem to be too large - any tips? Here's one anyway it's of panel 2 in the Pozieres Cemetery - hope it works! Nicola
nareynolds Posted 23 November , 2009 Author Posted 23 November , 2009 and here is another of the south eastern edge of Rifle Wood Nicola
stephen p nunn Posted 23 November , 2009 Posted 23 November , 2009 Great pictures Nicola. I have three Maldon/Heybridge lads on the memorial but not on panel 2. Best regards. SPN Maldon
whiterock Posted 30 November , 2009 Posted 30 November , 2009 Nicola, I hope to visit Rifle Wood in May 2010 and was most interested in your post and photo. (Rifle Wood also goes by the name of Dodo Wood, doesn't it?) My father was there with the 43rd Cameron Highlanders, Canadian Army, on the first day of the Battle of Amiens in August 1918. Were you able to get close to the Wood by automobile? Pmaasz mentioned that access to the wood itself is only possible with the permission of the landowner. Would anyone know how this person might be contacted? Any other information you have about the place would be most appreciated. John
pmaasz Posted 30 November , 2009 Posted 30 November , 2009 Rifle Wood: 1) Its name. Was officially designated Rifle Wood for the purposes of the British Army. Its French name then and now is Bois d'Hourges. I have seen it called Bois Dodu (Dodo Wood) also. 2) Location: South of the D934 and close to the crossing of the Demuin/Moreuil road the D23. The D934 is now a dual carriageway. When the southernmost roadway was built it cut away the Northern edge of Rifle Wood. It is not possible to drive up to the wood. You can park off the D23 (where the Rifle Wood memorial is located) and walk along the field edge to the wood. Or you can park close to Hourges Orchard Cemetery at the bottom of the hill off the D934 and walk along the field edge up to the wood. 3) Access: I have been into the wood several times but only with organised official parties at the time of ceremonies at our memorial. I believe one of the landowners lives in the S. of France and all I can suggest, if anyone wishes to enter the wood, is to make contact with one of the local mayors whose details I give below. There is nothing to see in the wood itself: all war debris has been cleared while forestry workers have been operating there. There are no trenches. There is a German dugout tunnel on the southern edge from the August battle, but it is almost entirely filled in. Don't be tempted to use a metal-detector as this will incur severe penalties unless you are licensed. In any case, as with places like Delville Wood, it is best to let any soldier buried there lie undisturbed. One of them is thought to be my uncle, and if I can leave him in peace, I hope others will too. Monsieur Gérard Dufour (Mayor of Domart) La mairie rue Berteaucourt 80110 Domart sur la Luce Somme FRANCE tel: 0033.3. 22 42 20 03 Fax : 0033.3. 22 42 25 81 Monsieur Pierre Boulanger (Mayor of Moreuil) La mairie Place Norbert Malterre 80110 Moreuil Somme FRANCE tel: 0033.3. 22 35 33 33 Fax: 0033.3. 35 33 34
whiterock Posted 30 November , 2009 Posted 30 November , 2009 Nicola, I hope to visit Rifle Wood in May 2010 and was most interested in your post and photo. (Rifle Wood also goes by the name of Dodo Wood, doesn't it?) My father was there with the 43rd Cameron Highlanders, Canadian Army, on the first day of the Battle of Amiens in August 1918. Were you able to get close to the Wood by automobile? Pmaasz mentioned that access to the wood itself is only possible with the permission of the landowner. Would anyone know how this person might be contacted? Any other information you have about the place would be most appreciated. John
whiterock Posted 30 November , 2009 Posted 30 November , 2009 Nicola, My apologies for the repeat message. And, gentlemen (Pmaasz), thank you very much for the information. Best regards, John
Antonia Posted 4 January , 2011 Posted 4 January , 2011 Nicola: Thanks for your kind words. I would be very pleased to hear from anyone interested in the battle for Rifle Wood, 1st April 1918. (Two days after the battle for Moreuil Wood.) I have done a lot of research on it. The regiments taking part in the attack were 3rd (KO) Hussars; Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars; 20th Hussars; 12th Royal Lancers; Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry), and the Canadian Cavalry Brigade: Fort Garry Horse, Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), and Royal Canadian Dragoons. Units in support were 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers), Royal Scots Greys, Royal Horse Artillery, 2nd Field Regt. Royal Engineers. Relieving units were 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, 7th (Princess Royal's) Dragoon Guards and 7th Battln Rifle Brigade. There is now a memorial not far from Rifle Wood on the southeast side, erected by the Canadians in 2004 to remember their men who died at Moreuil and Rifle Woods, and which includes a plaque commemorating the QOOH men. The Canadians have regular tour/remembrance visits, usually I think in August. The OY Trust and Association visits are less frequent but are usually around the anniversary of the battle. There is always a large and very touching turnout of local mayors and other French people, members of the Luce/Maple-Leaf Association, and an honour guard of French veterans. Rifle Wood itself is not accessible without permission from the landowner. Hello Pmaasz, I'm really grateful for the information provided by yourself and everyone in this thread. My great-great uncle, Noah Alfred Saunders, was killed at Rifle Wood on 1 April, 1918. He was a rifleman in the King's Royal Rifle Corps, 11th Battalion, 59th Brigade. He's buried nearby, in Namps-Au-Val Cemetery. This spring, my father and I are planning a pilgrimage to pay our respects at his grave, and around some of the battle sites. At the moment I'm in the "information gathering" stage, trying to find out as much as possible, to make the trip as successful as we can. I take on board that Rifle Wood itself is not generally accessible apart from special times or circumstances. Perhaps I can find out if there's a memorial service this year. If there is any way that you can easily share any particulars about the battle in and around Rifle Wood, I'd love to know more. With all best wishes, Antonia Gray
SWorrall Posted 4 January , 2011 Posted 4 January , 2011 Antonia, Welcome to the Forum. Why not start your own thread, requesting this information? At present no-one knows about your search / request, because you are tucked away at the foot of a thread which doesn't have Noah Alfred Saunders at it's head where everyone can see it. Put a new thread in the Soldiers sub-Forum with hs name as the subject, and mention his unit, plus Rifle Wood. That will attract the right crowd and your new Pals here will surely help you get what you need. There are many sources of information, to mention but a few; Soldiers Died in the Great War (SDGW); the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website; Ancestry.co.uk (for his medal entitlement and perhaps his service documents); Unit war diaries for 11/KRRC ; Trench maps; and many other sources. Some Pals are specialists about the Rifle Regiments. Get their attention and they will fall over each other to assist you. Include as much as you know about him; rank; service no.; date and place of enlistment; decorations and campaign medals. So that you don't get info that you already have. Simon.
Antonia Posted 5 January , 2011 Posted 5 January , 2011 Antonia, Welcome to the Forum. Why not start your own thread, requesting this information? At present no-one knows about your search / request, because you are tucked away at the foot of a thread which doesn't have Noah Alfred Saunders at it's head where everyone can see it. Put a new thread in the Soldiers sub-Forum with hs name as the subject, and mention his unit, plus Rifle Wood. That will attract the right crowd and your new Pals here will surely help you get what you need. There are many sources of information, to mention but a few; Soldiers Died in the Great War (SDGW); the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website; Ancestry.co.uk (for his medal entitlement and perhaps his service documents); Unit war diaries for 11/KRRC ; Trench maps; and many other sources. Some Pals are specialists about the Rifle Regiments. Get their attention and they will fall over each other to assist you. Include as much as you know about him; rank; service no.; date and place of enlistment; decorations and campaign medals. So that you don't get info that you already have. Simon. Hello Simon, Thank you very much for the excellent advice! It's much appreciated. I will definitely do as you suggest when I get home from work this evening. :-) Many thanks, and apologies for my rookie mistake! Best wishes, Antonia
CROONAERT Posted 5 January , 2011 Posted 5 January , 2011 ... (Rifle Wood also goes by the name of Dodo Wood, doesn't it?) ... Yes, as can be seen on this French trenchmap extract of 5th August 1918... dave
pmaasz Posted 6 January , 2011 Posted 6 January , 2011 Antonia. I'll add my welcome to the forum, and I'm delighted to find another person interested in Rifle Wood. I haven't checked any sources yet, but I'd very much like to know what info you have about your g-g-uncle. If he is buried at Namps-au-Val I think it likely that he died of wounds in the field hospital there rather than being KIA at Rifle Wood. I know that one of the relieving regiments after the battle was 7th battalion Rifle Brigade but I don't know enough about the RB and KRRC to be clear whether these are one and the same. Although I said in an earlier post that access is only with the permission of the landowner I'm sure you could sneak in if you wished to, although as I have said, there is nothing much to see and recently I regret to say there has been a lot of logging and tree clearance. I think the French sometimes have very little respect for historical battle sites, even if they are relatively minor ones. The memorial at Rifle Wood is very clear on Google Street view, if you pinpoint the D23/D934 crossing. I was very much involved in it and have written about it from the QOOH point of view in an article on Tom Morgan's website at: http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/welcome.htm#CONTENTS I do have a lot of info about the battle, but not very much about the activities of the relieving units. If I can answer any further questions please let me know. Peter
Antonia Posted 6 January , 2011 Posted 6 January , 2011 Antonia. I'll add my welcome to the forum, and I'm delighted to find another person interested in Rifle Wood. I haven't checked any sources yet, but I'd very much like to know what info you have about your g-g-uncle. If he is buried at Namps-au-Val I think it likely that he died of wounds in the field hospital there rather than being KIA at Rifle Wood. I know that one of the relieving regiments after the battle was 7th battalion Rifle Brigade but I don't know enough about the RB and KRRC to be clear whether these are one and the same. Although I said in an earlier post that access is only with the permission of the landowner I'm sure you could sneak in if you wished to, although as I have said, there is nothing much to see and recently I regret to say there has been a lot of logging and tree clearance. I think the French sometimes have very little respect for historical battle sites, even if they are relatively minor ones. The memorial at Rifle Wood is very clear on Google Street view, if you pinpoint the D23/D934 crossing. I was very much involved in it and have written about it from the QOOH point of view in an article on Tom Morgan's website at: http://www.fylde.dem...me.htm#CONTENTS I do have a lot of info about the battle, but not very much about the activities of the relieving units. If I can answer any further questions please let me know. Peter Hi Peter, Thank you for your welcome! And for your information and post in the 'photographs' thread - it's very much appreciated!! When I've posted this I'm going to read your article. My great-great uncle was in the 11th Battalion, 59th Brigade of the KRRC. I'm quite new to the military side of family history research, so I must confess that the details of battalions and brigades is still a bit of a mystery to me - but I'm working on it! Today I received Major and Mrs Holt's 'Battlefield Guide to the Somme', which is excellent, and does feature Rifle Wood, but what surprises me is that neither they, nor many other sources I've looked at (not that I'm an expert in these matters, though my father is!) even mention the presence of the KRRC at the battle. But I know they were there, because I have the battalion's war diary. It's fascinating that you were involved with the memorial there. I hope the landowner doesn't alter the site too much. As you say, even if the landowners don't personally have much of a sense of the history, it's still important to show respect for, and preserve, the integrity of the site. Yesterday I posted the particulars about my great-great uncle, and some relevant extracts from the war diary in the 'Researching a Soldier' forum with the subject "Noah Alfred Saunders, 11th Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps" and a subheading of "Rifle Wood". This link should take you to it: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158079 According to the CWGC, he "died of wounds", so I think you must be right, he probably died down the road at Namps-Au-Val. I didn't know the field hospital was located there - that's good to know. As my father and I are planning to tour the Somme, one of the things I would most like to find out is what were some of the other battles the KRRC 11th Battalion were also involved in, to help us plan our route. I'm not quite sure how to find this out - if you have any suggestions, I'd be very grateful! I know there are one or two KRRC regimental histories that have been published and are available on Amazon, but they are on the costly side. I would also like to know in more detail what the KRRC's experience of Rifle Wood might have been. Again, very many thanks for your time and information! I'm very grateful indeed. Going off to read your article now. Best wishes, Antonia
Antonia Posted 6 January , 2011 Posted 6 January , 2011 Hi again Peter, I've just had a look at the KRRC website, and found this on their 1918 page: http://www.krrcassociation.com/history/wf1918.htm and thought I'd post it here in case it is of interest to you. "With the 20th (Light) Division The 20th (Light) Division, with our 11th and 12th Battalions, formed part of the Corps reserve of the XVIII Corps. At 1 p.m. on 21st March they moved to concentration areas, and manned the rear zone Vaux to Rumignon early on the 22nd. Having covered the retirement of the forward divisions, positions were held which checked the enemy's advance on the 23rd, and after several gallant attacks the Division continued to maintain the line of the River Somme until ordered to retire at 12.20 p.m. on the 24th. Retirement continued until the end of the month, owing to flanks being constantly turned, but cohesion was never lost and our battalions took part in many hard-fought and often successful actions. Both battalions lost their Commanding Officers, Lieutenant-Colonel G. K. Priaulx, D.S.O., 11th Battalion, killed, and Lieutenant-Colonel L. G. Moore, D.S.O., 12th Battalion, wounded and captured. Losses of the two battalions.—Officers: killed 11, wounded 19, missing 6; other ranks: 885." Best wishes, Antonia
pmaasz Posted 7 January , 2011 Posted 7 January , 2011 Antonia: I think you are well on the way to tracking down the info you want. The Forum is the place to find the experts who can answer the simplest to the most extra-ordinary of questions. The regimental museum is the Green Jackets Museum at Winchester which no doubt can also help you. More info about the KRRC and the various battalions is at:http://web.archive.org/web/20080123044911/www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/inf/060KRRC.htm Would you be able to copy me with the KRRC war diary for a day or two either side of 1.4.18 when the battalion was at Rifle wood? I'll send my email address in a personal message. Thanks and good luck. Keep in touch. I'm interested in anything and everything about Rifle Wood. Peter
Antonia Posted 7 January , 2011 Posted 7 January , 2011 Antonia: I think you are well on the way to tracking down the info you want. The Forum is the place to find the experts who can answer the simplest to the most extra-ordinary of questions. The regimental museum is the Green Jackets Museum at Winchester which no doubt can also help you. More info about the KRRC and the various battalions is at:http://web.archive.org/web/20080123044911/www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/inf/060KRRC.htm Would you be able to copy me with the KRRC war diary for a day or two either side of 1.4.18 when the battalion was at Rifle wood? I'll send my email address in a personal message. Thanks and good luck. Keep in touch. I'm interested in anything and everything about Rifle Wood. Peter Hi Peter, Thank you for that information. :-) I'm considering placing a request for research at the Green Jackets Muesum. I'll check out the link you suggest as well! I'm at work at the moment, so when I get home I'll email you. I only have a photocopy of the diary from the National Archives, so will need to type up a few pages. Back soon.... Best wishes, Antonia
pmaasz Posted 7 January , 2011 Posted 7 January , 2011 Antonia: me again. Having reminded myself of the course of the battle I can pinpoint the area where your g-g-uncle probably was wounded. The KRRC relieved the 3rd (KO) Hussars in their line. Refer to the map shown in Croonaert's post. At the RH top of the map and right on the edge of it you will see a narrow road with a T-junction leading off to the right and a dotted track from it to the left. This junction was the left flank of the 3rd H's attack objective, which was to capture the road from the T to about half-way southwards towards Rifle Wood. On the right of 3rd H were the Oxfordshire Hussars, whose objective was from the 3rd H's right up to the corner of the Wood. Each regiment advanced on a front of only 150yards. The history of 3rd H records that KRRC relieved them 'in the line' which suggests that they did not move far away from their original objective. This road, which still exists although its junction with the D934 has been modified, therefore is the area where presumably your g-g-uncle received his wound. The Wood itself is therefore not of special interest to you, other than the fact that it was militarily vital to take it and help stop the German advance towards Amiens. Peter
pmaasz Posted 7 January , 2011 Posted 7 January , 2011 And yet again... I know you plan to visit Rifle Wood and Namps-au-Val in the Spring but you may like to know that the War Graves Photographic Project has on file a photo of your g-g-uncle's grave, although it has not yet been uploaded to the web. See:http://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=2825028 Peter
pilot Posted 8 January , 2011 Posted 8 January , 2011 Hello Antonia I'm the only person authorized to guide a tour in a part of Rifle Wood. It will be a pleasure to welcome you (send me a personal message) Sincerly
pmaasz Posted 8 January , 2011 Posted 8 January , 2011 Marc (Pilot): Very best wishes Marc for the New Year. I'm pleased to know you are still active on the GWF. Peter
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