new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[Seadog]

No need to be sorry Jim, it was good of you to offer your time and efforts in the first place. The news about the finding of the German soldiers is remarkable and the Volksbund are to be congratulated for their work. The numbers are very sobering and I am not suprised that a lot of the remains were found on the Eastern Front. All I can say is that the CWGC and other authorities here could learn a valuable lesson from our German friends but it is very doubtful that they will. I have visited the Butte de Vauquois and if you would like to see some photos click on the link.

Verdun:

Best Wishes

Norman

[PBI]

I was wondering if some of the Forum members who seem to have the Ear of the CWGC would like to comment on this thread,i am surprised that they have not already "steamed in" so to speak to defend the CWGC and its policy of lack of tranparency and openess when it comes to divulging information regarding recent discoverys/Interments.

[JimSmithson]

Thanks for the photos Norman. There was a tantalising aerial photo of the Butte in the magazine. I really need to get to the area sometime.

Jim

[Tjap]

Having just come to this thread via Seadog's comments on the Fromelles Group and from working with Mel Pack and others on tracing the relatives of the Fromelles missing, does anyone have a list of the 32 missing Yorks and Lancs soldiers lost 18/19 Oct 1914?

Tracing some potential relatives and raising their awareness might bring some more power to your elbows so to speak on this issue.

Best,

Howard

[ianw]

Yes, I have the list - a goodly selection of men from Rotherham , Sheffield , Leeds etc

Some nice researchable surnames such as Brameld, Jeff, Oxer, Peatfield, Singyard and Hobin

[dfaulder]

I think Howard is on the right lines here; if you want to interest an MP you have to show a constituency interest and that you are a constituent (or fire up their campaigning zeal for a cause). So writing to the MP for Maidenhead (CWGC headquarters), Teresa May, will do you no good once her team know that you live outside of the constituency - you get referred to your own MP.

We need descendants of the fallen to raise the issue with their MPs. This means that there is a delicate task of finding them and then seeing if they are interested in doing so of their own volition. To use them just to further our wishes I find distasteful.

David

[KevinBattle]

I presume there's no secrecy over the Names?

Geoffs' Search Engine has these

001 ALLCOCK HE 6774 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

002 ANDREW JW 7589 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

003 BRAMELD J 7208 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

004 BUTTERWORTH W 8175 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

005 CHESTER AJ 7771 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

006 CHURCH RJ 7368 2ND BN 19/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

007 COONEY A 10296 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

008 DARRINGTON GE 7689 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

009 DYSON FC 9159 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

010 ELLIS W 8272 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

011 HADFIELD F 7775 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

012 HALLETT CE 7536 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

013 HARVEY R 4675 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

014 HERBERT S 7761 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

015 HOBIN SW 9268 2ND BN 19/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

016 JARVIS J 7164 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

017 JEFF R 10523 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

018 MORLEY LA 8678 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

019 OLIVER T 7852 2ND BN 19/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

020 OXER E 8502 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

021 PARKER HW 8259 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

022 PEACE HK - 3RD BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

023 PEARSON A 10356 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

024 PEATFIELD B 10331 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

025 RICHMOND J 7969 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

026 ROEBUCK L 8116 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

027 ROOKE JW 8271 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

028 SINGYARD WA 7318 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

029 SLATER C 7917 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

030 TURNER A 10428 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

031 USHER FH 10054 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

032 WARR WH 6822 2ND BN 19/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

033 WHITE C 7156 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

034 WILLIAMS DW 8458 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

035 YOUNG WV 8902 2ND BN 18/10/1914 YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT

As you say, some interesting surnames that might help people locate surviving family members.

Of those named above, Church and Hobin are buried in Bois-Grenier communal cemetery and Peace was 3rd Battalion attached to 1st Battn Lincolnshire and is on the Le Touquet Memorial, leaving the 32 mentioned by Howard.

Hope this is helpful

[Seadog]

May I ask you members with much more knowledge on the matter than I have what is the procedure now for the process of identification of soldiers remains bearing in mind the success achieved at Fromelles by the use of both DNA and information provided by historians with regard to existing family members of the fallen. This is an extract from the email in Post 115 from the CWGC:

“As I am sure you understand deceased servicemen and women are (until such time as they are passed to us for burial in one of our cemeteries) the responsibility of the government for which they were serving. All decisions regarding investigation or attribution of identity (including publicity) are a matter for the relevant service authority - in this case the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence and their Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre, who have been informed of the discovery and are proceeding with normal investigative procedures.”

Note that this response fails to mention the role of the CWGC Exhumation Officer.

Given that the B-Ligny discoveries can be defined as a “mass grave” would the MOD and JCCC mentioned above have the historical and research facilities to undertake a similar form of identification procedure as applied to those at Fromelles. I personally see no reason why we should pressure MPs etc for a proper investigation to be made as these fallen countrymen of ours deserve this as of right. What happens when the next mass grave is found as it most certainly will be.

Regards

Norman

[Tjap]

I absolutely agree that they deserve it as of right, but it may be that persuading MP's to put pressure on those controlling resources is the only way to ensure that they receive that right. It is not a pleasant position in which to place oneself, and I can understand that, but sadly sometimes it is necessary.

Best to all,

Howard

[glosterman]

May I ask you members with much more knowledge on the matter than I have what is the procedure now for the process of identification of soldiers remains bearing in mind the success achieved at Fromelles by the use of both DNA and information provided by historians with regard to existing family members of the fallen. This is an extract from the email in Post 115 from the CWGC:

"As I am sure you understand deceased servicemen and women are (until such time as they are passed to us for burial in one of our cemeteries) the responsibility of the government for which they were serving. All decisions regarding investigation or attribution of identity (including publicity) are a matter for the relevant service authority - in this case the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence and their Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre, who have been informed of the discovery and are proceeding with normal investigative procedures."

Note that this response fails to mention the role of the CWGC Exhumation Officer.

Given that the B-Ligny discoveries can be defined as a "mass grave" would the MOD and JCCC mentioned above have the historical and research facilities to undertake a similar form of identification procedure as applied to those at Fromelles. I personally see no reason why we should pressure MPs etc for a proper investigation to be made as these fallen countrymen of ours deserve this as of right. What happens when the next mass grave is found as it most certainly will be.

Regards

Norman

Norman

I'm a new boy here having been attracted by all the publicity on Fromelles, but have an interest in military history and have also had past dealings with the JCCC on work arising out of a WW 2 aircraft crash site in the Netherlands.

You say earlier in this thread you have emailed the CWGC, have you tried contacting the JCCC direct to see what they know or are doing?

I found them helpful on my case, but from my dealings believe they have only 2 people employed on historic casework, with most of their staff / resources dealing with current casualties. Given current funding pressures in the MoD, I dont expect this will change, but I like many believe we have a debt of honour to identify and name the dead and missing.

Good luck

Kevin

[Tjap]

Thanks for this,

I've had a quick look at these men and not surprisingly, since they were regular soldiers, quite a few were married and in their thirties and with children recorded on the 1911 census. It is possible to trace these children down through the Birth Marriage and Death register indexes and then locate their descendants by a number of differerent techniques. This is substantially different from, for example, the British missing at Fromelles, where very few were of marital age.

I am sure that there is more information available regarding the majority of these men who have no further details than their names recorded on the CWGC website.

Best,

Howard

[ianw]

Howard,

Yes, it's not surprising that these older men may be more researchable for surviving relatives. I don't think there is any doubt that, based on the Fromelles experience, a number of these men could be identified if their DNA is extractable and viable.

[Seadog]

I doubt whether there has been such a good opportunity to identify newly discovered British soldiers remains than this, 15 sets of remains and 32 potential matches. This will depend of course on proper exhumation having taken place plus the extraction of DNA specimens where possible and the relatives of the fallen being found. From the photo published in the French Press I am very doubtful if either of the two first requirements have been met. If so and bearing in mind that this discovery occurred during the high profile events at Fromelles such an example of inaction by the authorities will reflect badly on them and will have a detrimental effect on the trust and confidence that we the general public have vested in them.

Regards

Norman

[River97]

I doubt whether there has been such a good opportunity to identify newly discovered British soldiers remains than this, 15 sets of remains and 32 potential matches. This will depend of course on proper exhumation having taken place plus the extraction of DNA specimens where possible and the relatives of the fallen being found. From the photo published in the French Press I am very doubtful if either of the two first requirements have been met. If so and bearing in mind that this discovery occurred during the high profile events at Fromelles such an example of inaction by the authorities will reflect badly on them and will have a detrimental effect on the trust and confidence that we the general public have vested in them.

Regards

Norman

Norman,

I, somewhat, tend to disagree.

Before the Fromelles experience, remains found from WW1 were never identified, unless there was something with the remains to confirm who they were. DNA samples had never been taken previously and a working list of possibles were never gathered in the hope that some were able to have a named headstone.

Fromelles was a unique endeavour, and at first, there was no set confirmation they were even going to exhume the remains. There was a possibility of a memorial being erected over the burial pits and leaving it at that.

Now that DNA samples have been taken, soldiers identified and given a formal funeral, I still don't think a precedence has been set. I think it is unrealistic for the authorities to be in a position to gather working lists and DNA samples from every set of remains recovered from here on. Don't get me wrong, if they did make that announcement, I would be as over the moon as the rest of you. And, yes, I do believe that B-Ligny is a prime candidate, with the working list already formed.

Maybe the MOD need some pressure from the public and families of the fallen. I just don't think it will happen in the way Fromelles did.

What I've just written is probably as clear as mud.

Cheers Andy.

[Seadog]

An interesting point of view Andy but one with which I personally do not agree with. I believe that a precedent has indeed been set by the events at Fromelles and that similar procedures should be followed in the case of new discoveries where there are sufficient numbers of such remains found and the historical record is able to determine the possible identity of the soldiers. There should not be one rule for one discovery and a totally different rule for the subsequent ones; after all they were all soldiers fighting in the same war.

To ignore the advanced techniques followed at Fromelles would be in my view completely wrong and a disservice to both the fallen and their relatives. Consider this, would you still hold the same opinion if the soldiers found at Beaucamps-Ligny were identified as Australian and there was a potential list of identifications available?

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

I am still very concerned by the deafening silence from the CWGC/MOD and the British Media over the lack of reporting of the discovery of these Mens remains.The discovery was well publicised in France and Belgium,and Canada,but not a word over here.Maybe the CWGC/MOD are hoping that the 15 will be quickly forgotten about,and then can be quietly buried at a later date with the minimum of media attention,and dare i say it minimum of financial expenditure II have to say that these Men deserve the parity of care and treatment afforded to the Fromelles Men.No doubt financial matters will be at the heart of this matter,but i doubt if the CWGC/MOD would directly mention this for fear of a backlash.Do the CWGC/MOD have a covert agenda already in place for the 15 ?. As footnote,i never did recieve a reply from the MOD or CWGC.

[Seadog]

Agreed, this is just the feelings that such a lack of transparency and media reporting can and will engender. Do not the responsible people in the CWGC and the MOD understand that it is much better to be open and “up front” with matters such as this particularly when there is such emphasis on the discovery, exhumation and identification of the Fromelles fallen.

Regards

Norman

PS Nice Avatar!

[River97]

Consider this, would you still hold the same opinion if the soldiers found at Beaucamps-Ligny were identified as Australian and there was a potential list of identifications available?

Norman,

I would feel the same and I'll give you an example. There are over 400 sets of remains of Australians buried under the crosses at VC Corner, gathered from the fields of Fromelles. Not one of them is identified and neither do they have individual headstones. I am damn sure that the vast majority of them could now be identified by name.

I know it's slightly different, but let them be. I'm also considering the cost of projects like this. Obviously with the high profile of Pheasant Wood the Australian and British governments stepped in and helped foot the bill, but that is not always going to be the case. As I said previously, I would love for them to be identified, if it was possible, but I just don't think every case will be the same as those in the burial pits (of which I'm also damn sure there are more).

The CWGC does, I believe, an absolutely stunning job on a fairly tight budget. I do agree that they have the communication skills of a pot plant, but if that's all there is to worry about then they're doing all right. I also believe they don't deserve to be openly scorned here.

Cheers Andy.

[PBI]

Firstly Andy why dont the CWGC try and do something to remedy their crap comms,and secondly they could really help themselves a great deal more by being totally open and Transparent,and lifting this stupid veil of secrecy.Regarding the Fromelles affair ,i think that the CWGC/MOD only acted as they did because they were forced into taking action,after the excellent researchers had presented their case findings and the Australian Media and Govt became involved.I feel that if pressure had not been brought to bear on CWGC and MOD by these parties that nothing would have been done.Regards Russ.

[Seadog]

Andy again we will have to agree to disagree, I do not see that proper investigation will place an insurmountable financial burden on the authorities considering the very few discoveries like Fromelles and Beaucamps-Ligny. Even if it did I see no excuse for the utilization of the most modern investigative techniques not to be used. My own opinion of the CWGC is quite simple, I see them as surviving on a past reputation which was no doubt richly deserved but they are now unable or unwilling to move with the times and to reappraise their role in this internet age of worldwide communication and transparency.

I separate the administration and directorate of the CWGC from those who work at the "sharp end" maintaining the War Cemeteries throughout the World. Just look at two recent cases involving the CWGC, there was the instant change to the Debt of Honour Database which at a stoke nullified thousands of records obtained by local historians etc and then in October last year the lack of any details posted on their web site relating to the interment of found remains on the Somme, caused as they have stated by "not receiving the info in time" despite the fact that the Arras office was fully aware of the arrangement for a considerable time and presumably were on the end of a phone.

This is not in any way pouring scorn on the CWGC but like any organisation they should not be immune from criticism under any circumstances. What other opinion can any reasonable person have, faced with the total lack of any information with regard to the B-L 15?.

Regards

Norman

[richardIII]

I am new to this theme and would like to record my feelings.

I think it would be wonderful if from now on all discoveries could be given a proper archaeological excavation, with the remains automatically having samples DNA tested and with a sample retained for future advances in technology.

However, it is never going to happen, the MOD and CWGC do not have the remit or resources to do this and I don't think there will be the political will or finance to change this situation.

But, the VERY LEAST we should expect is that the CWGC and or the MOD publicise all discoveries and especially give plenty of advance notice of where and when the internments will be. I am sure that given sufficient notice to make travel arrangements, many people would like to attend to pay their respects. At present it seems as if there is a conspiracy of silence. Why should this be?

Richard

[Seadog]

Hi Richard thanks for your post. A while back there was a topic regarding the complete lack of notification of new interments which had led to total confusion as to what was happening in the war cemeteries where the interments were taking place. You may like to click on the following to view:

GWF Topic:

To the credit of the CWGC you will see from Post No.55 that they did agree to notify these interments via the “Latest News” part of their web site. We can of course only place our trust in them that this is exactly what is actually happening. The treatment by the authorities of the Beaucamps-Ligny find is very odd with no UK Media reports, which I assume means that no press notice was prepared and distributed, plus a veil of silence from both the CWGC and MOD since. It is important to bear in mind that the Exhumation Officer employed by the CWGC in France would have, I presume been involved in overseeing the excavation of what are British Soldiers who were members of the BEF and as such “Old Contemptibles”, I contend that no more important discovery has been made for many years and it should be treated with extreme care and made the subject of all available identification techniques currently available.

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Amen to that Norman.I for one find the attitude and response of the CWGC and MOD bloody well P**S poor to say the very least.The LB 15 discovery certainly rates as a major "Find",i wonder what the British Publics opinion would be if the discovery of the LB 15 were to recieve far greater media exposure here in Blighty,plus some really very aggressive lobbying and agitation by Families of the Fallen,and concerned Military researchers,and Politicos, as has been the case in Australia regarding the Fromelles "Missing".CWGC/MOD..these 15 Men of Beaucamps Ligny will NOT simply be forgotten or quietly Disappear..come on CWGC put lift this veil of secrecy and non information,you are Failing in the Obligations and duties of the CWGC Charter.

"If Ye Break Faith With Us Who Die, in Flanders Fields we Shall not Sleep,though Poppies grow in Flanders Fields. "

http://www.cwgc.co.uk/

[ianw]

Interestingly, Martin Brown talked yetserday at the Tally Ho Conference about the efforts being made to identify an Australian soldier found near Messines in a recent dig. Martin hopes that a positive ID will become available any day now and it is hoped that this soldier will be buried in a known grave on the Monday 21st July at Prowse Point.

An interesting point about these remains is that analysis of strontium levels in the remains is being used to establish where the man came from in Australia. When a range of these forensic techniques is used, they mutually support each other and "supercharge" the ID process.

This gives further impetus to the apparent fact that modern ID techniques will readily identify a goodly % of these remains being found.

From my point of view, I in no way support the disinterrment of any existing unknowns for the purpose of ID. However, not using the available arsenal of ID techniques for groups of soldiers such as the BL 15 is simply not acceptable and should be routine.

[peterhogg]

An interesting and thoughtful thread. One question I have, alluded to in one of the previous posts, is that where remains are found, would it not at least be possible for the exhumation officer to extract or retain something of the remains for the purposes of later DNA testing? If this is partly a matter of the financial cost of DNA or forensic testing, how expensive could it be to at least retain a sample extracted from the remains? Given the advancement of this technology this would not involve anything beyond a minute amount of material. I do understand of course, this would entail the cost related to storage of such samples. And I do understand there is a lack of political will.

Perhaps this is a false analogy, and I know that there are many different considerations here but imagine this. If the remains of a body have been found, they will be the subject of immediate scrutiny by the police and certainly forensic samples and tests will follow the investigative protocol. But if it's obvious that the remains are from the war, there seems to be an immediate loss of interest---and i mean no insult to the CWGC. But something more than a decent burial would seem to be warranted when we consider that the remains are those of a man who lost his life in service of his country.

Obviously Fromelles was a one-off and would never have happened without the political pressure that led to the ultimate project. But I would think that the MOD would show some interest. Let's face it, there's always money around. But it will only be spent on a project when there is pressure.

And I don't hold my own country's Veteran's Affairs Portfolio in any high esteem either. I don't hear the Canadian Government wanting to pony up for any of these costs related to DNA testing if an u known Canadian is found. It's the same old thing I suppose, the Dead are held in hight esteem by governments only when the cost is cheap rhetoric.