new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[Seadog]

Thanks for the radio link Kevin, as at today it is available for another five days.

Update for Ms Raftree

You do not bury up to 20 sets of remains each year as you state in the audio, in fact there are a minimum of 60 individual sets of remains partial or otherwise which are deemed to be British still awaiting decent burial the earliest of which were found in 2009 and exclude the BL-15 which you (The MOD) intend to bury (The 60) no later than July 2014 which will conveniently coincide with the 100th Commemorations

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

The September issue of the excellent “Britain at War” magazine includes a comprehensive article regarding the following soldiers for whom relatives are sought.

Private Ross Jeff - Killed 18/10/14

Private Henry William Parker – Killed 18/10/14

Private David Wilson Williams – Killed 18/10/14

Private Gavin Lowe – Killed 23/10/14

Lance Serjeant George Edwardes – Killed 23/10/14

Private John William Taylor – Killed 23/10/14

Any relatives of the above are asked to contact;-

Lynne Gammond

Army Media Communication Team

Tel : 03067-701322

Email: Lynne.gammond453@mod.uk

Norman

[Seadog]

Hi Frank (Larrett) we are now in October the month in 1914 when the soldiers died or to put it another way 99 years ago and almost 4 years from the discovery of their remains. I hope that you and your family are well and I know that you would have posted any news on developments regarding the attempts being made to identify the men had there been any in recent weeks.

LEST WE FORGET

Best Wishes

Norman

[ianw]

Absolutely delighted to learn that there are likely to be a good number of positive IDs made amongst this group of Old Contemptibles who fell in October 1914.

I'll be there to honour them when they finally are again laid to rest.

Can't but think that the campaigning done by various folk including people on this Forum helped to secure this likely good result.

[Seadog]

Ian one of course would not like to “jump the gun” but I sincerely believe that just the fact that the remains of the 15 soldiers are now being subjected to the latest investigative techniques that were so very successful in the identification of the Pheasant Wood burials at Fromelles is in my opinion and I guess that of many contributors to this thread ground-breaking in respect of the British MOD response to this type of discovery of the fallen. Whatever the outcome and of course we all wish for the best result, this case must surely set a precedent for similar cases in the future as doubtless there will be.

Norman

[ianw]

Norman - would have to say you are first among equals when it comes to keepng the BL-15 question being asked over the years.

[SiegeGunner]

I don't suppose that the current efforts to identify the BL-15 are going to be extended to Y&L casualties from the same actions who were discovered earlier and buried as unknown.

[Seadog]

What discoveries are you referring to?, the simple fact is that the MOD do not disclose the “finds” via press releases and the only time that most people will even be aware that our soldiers have been found and continue to be found on the battlefields is when the CWGC announce the reburials. It is also a fact that at this time according to the CWGC there are 75 sets or partial sets of human remains awaiting release by the MOD and reburial by the CWGC including the BL-15. Again according to the CWGC these (ex BL-15) will be buried as “Known unto God” and all by July 2014. It is also a fact that as far as I am aware the BL-15 case is the first example of the MOD utilizing DNA profiling together with other techniques to attempt identification. In summary then, in the UK we will never be aware of the discoveries unless foreign media report them and in the case of this forum whether members bring this to our attention and the likelihood is that all remains will be buried as “Unknowns”. It would be easy from the evidence available to form the opinion that the MOD are deliberately keeping the discoveries from the British public and if the burial of the 60 sets of remains (ex BL-15) is anything to go by this could set the precedent for all future cases of reburial of the dead from both world wars.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

A question for contributors to this thread. Does anyone have the actual details of the date and place of eventual burial if the 15 soldiers planned for 2014 I realize that times plus full details will no doubt be available nearer the date. I ask this as those who may wish to attend the ceremony would be advised to make an early booking for accommodation etc given that 2014 is the 100^th anniversary year. I have also contacted Lord Faulkner of the All Party War Heritage Group and I will post his response here.

Norman

[Seadog]

I have received the following from Lord Faulkner supplied to him by the CWGC

1. The reburials are to be accommodated at Y Farm Military Cemetery, Bois-Grenier.

2. The planned date for the reburials is late October 2014 (between 18 and 25 October) as this is the 100^th anniversary of the action in which the casualties were killed. The day of 23 October has been proposed as the date for the ceremony, but this has not yet been finalised by the MOD

The MOD are responsible for all arrangements for the reburials and should Mr.*** wish to contact MoD direct the relevant contact details are as follows:

JCCC (Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre)

Post Death Administration

SPVA

Innsworth House

Imjin Barracks

Innsworth

Gloucester GL3 1HW

E mail: SPVA-DMSJCCCGroupMailbox@mod.uk

Please note that the date of 23rd October 2014 is a proposal and has yet to be confirmed.(my text) I would suggest using the JCCC email above to confirm the date with the MOD.

I have of course thanked Lord Faulkner for such prompt assistance.

Y Farm War Cemetery

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2000042/Y%20FARM%20MILITARY%20CEMETERY,%20BOIS-GRENIER

Norman

[ianw]

It really does seem that the MOD is now revved up and doing the right thing here.

This will be a key ceremony in 2014 I think and do great honour both to the individuals concerned and the memory of the Old Contemptibles.

i'll be there.

[frankyboy77]

Hi

Norman I have been in contact with Sue? ,She has not replied to two emails ,

I for one are getting a bit pssss off .I know things take time but at least a reply would be nice and polite, Mel same thing I contacted him ,no reply.

Are we touching on the Official Secret Act by asking for a reply ,I did sign it in (1954) So I think it still counts now;.

I have read the posts and if we want to go to the ceremony's what chance have we got to get accommodation, at this late stage ?????

Frank

[Seadog]

This is a ludicrous situation and it is not just you Frank; I have emailed the JCCC as suggested by the CWGC in post 461 to ask whether they can confirm the date in October 2014 with the predictable result of absolutely nothing! Not even an acknowledgement of my request. I have no doubt whatsoever that the department responsible is not fit for purpose and whether this is a deliberate policy by the MOD or just a complete distain for the public being shown by the department itself is open to question. The thing that should concern all of us with an interest in the Great War is just what is happening with regard to any investigations pertaining to those remains still being found and which will continue to be found for the foreseeable future. If we the public are kept in the dark when discoveries are made will the MOD even attempt any form of identification or as seems more likely just release the remains to the CWGC after a period of years for burial as “Unknowns” with nobody being any the wiser. Just remember that it has been confirmed that during 2014 and including the BL-15 over 70 individual sets or partial sets of remains are to be reburied and this figure does not include those found this year 2013 so it stands to reason that the total number is even higher, a completely unacceptable situation. I will contact Lord Faulkner again to ask if he can obtain the actual date in 2014 and I will of course post any response here.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

The latest on my attempts to confirm the burial date in 2014 following my request for Lord Faulkner to take this up with the MOD. All the following dated today.

From Sue Raftree of the JCCC

It has been highlighted to me that I have not responded to emails regarding the burial date for the 15 soldiers, of the York and Lancaster Regiment, found in France in 2009. I empathise with your frustration however, I can confirm that I have not seen sight of these emails in either the group box or indeed my own personal account.

In answer to your question, a date has yet to be decided for the burial in October 2014. We are currently liaising with the CWGC and the Regiment and are actively working on a programme for all burials in France and Belgium in 2014. When finalized the dates will be published on the CWGC website. I will ensure that you are personally advised when this information is promulgated. We are also mindful of the 100th Anniversary and the additional pressures that this will bring.

You mention a relative Frank who I believe is Frank Wood, I have previously been in correspondence with Mr Wood and will contact him again to advise him of the current situation. There were 58 soldiers killed in this Battle who have no known graves, the majority of their families have been found and contacted and we continue to trace the remainder.

My response to Ms Raftree

Dear Ms Raftree

Thank you for your response which came I presume after I had contacted Lord Faulkner Chairman of the All Party War Heritage Group for his assistance in confirmation of the date of burial of the 15 soldiers taking place in 2014. I can assure you that the email sent by myself on the 9^th October 2013 to the address as supplied by the CWGC has not been returned as undelivered and was accepted by that address.

Frankly your explanation regarding the still to be agreed burial date is not acceptable for I am sure that you will be aware that due to the 100^th anniversary commemorations in 2014 the pressure on accommodation will be intense and to stand any chance of booking such accommodation it is imperative that the date of burials be confirmed as a matter of urgency. I request therefore that you or whoever is responsible for such arrangements make a swift decision and communicate this to me and the other interested parties as soon as possible. This email has been copied to Lord Faulkner and Frank Wood.

To Lord Faulkner attaching both the above

Dear Lord Faulkner

Please see below for a response I have received from Ms Raftree of the JCCC and my reply. These people have been deliberating over the 15 British Soldiers since they were found in 2009. By the time they receive a proper burial 5 years will have passed and in my opinion confirming the actual date of burial should be an easy matter and frankly the response from Ms Raftree on this subject is totally unacceptable and is no way to treat the families of the dead soldiers who by an accident of fate have returned to us. I hope that you will agree and I both thank you for your efforts in this latest matter and ask you please to continue to exert your influence and that of the group to bring this to a speedy conclusion.

Regards

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

I'm glad they reply to name dropping , Good result , it just a matter of waiting and hoping that Larrett his one off them ,it will be a shock if he his not one of them

But a least we have set a a standard for any more unknown lads who have lost their lives for the Country?.

I will be on tenterhooks till we get to know .

Cheers again Norman

Frank

[Seadog]

This is an interesting line from Ms Raftree:-

"We are currently liaising with the CWGC and the Regiment and are actively working on a programme for all burials in France and Belgium in 2014"

A possible 70 sets of remains are to be decently buried in 2014, it will be interesting to see just how the MOD deal with this from the standpoint of advising the public of the details in a reasonable time so that those who wish to pay their respects can actually do so.

Regards

Norman

[dannyboy1807]

not sure this is the place to put it but over the weekend the remains of a Fallen Royal Irish Rifles Soldier we're found near the Ulster Tower.

[mandy hall]

This Facebook page gives more info

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Somme-Association/140029992732757

Second article left hand side of page.

Paul Reed also tweeted this over weekend.

Mandy

[Seadog]

Thanks for posting this latest discovery it deserves a separate thread so members can keep up to date with any developments. I am sure that we all hope for a positive identification. Sadly unless things change for the better the identification process could drag on for at least 3 years if other such finds are anything to go by.

Norman

PS I have started a specific thread

 

 

[Seadog]

The details regarding the burial of the BL-15 have been confirmed as follows:

Date: 22nd October 2014

Time: 1000 hrs

Place: Y Farm Military Cemetery Bois Grenier

See:

 

Norman

[Seadog]

Frank as you know there will be a meeting in Sheffield in March 20th to bring the relatives of the fallen up to date with the identification progress I wish you and your family the very best of luck at this meeting. Just remember that whatever the outcome you have all given your best on behalf of Larrett and without this effort these men would have all been buried as “Known Unto God” by now. The foregoing of course applies to all those relatives involved in the process. Please post on the forum when the results are known.

Best Wishes

Norman

[Seadog]

The MOD have issued a press release regardung the results of the identification investigations. No doubt this will appear in the media shorty and it has already been broadcast on BBC radio news. Here is confirmation from one source, there will be others of course.

Article

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/uk/UK-identifies-remains-of-World-War-I-soldiers-found-in-France/articleshow/32438780.cms

What splendid news it is that after five years since they were found two-thirds of the discovered soldiers have been identified by name a result that is a great credit to all those who contributed to the investigations which culminated in this excellent outcome.

A word of thanks also to everybody who campaigned for the 15 soldiers and for all those who will be found in the future to be subjected to DNA profiling the application of which will prove to be a essential investigative tool when the circumstances of the discoveries lend themselves to such a technique.

I would like to think that non-matched DNA samples donated by the relatives of the fallen will be retained for future use if and when any new finds are made fitting the appropriate criteria in order that such finds may be formally identified.

My commiserations to our member Larrett (Frank) whose Grandfather was sadly not identified but who by his unstinting efforts has made a valuable contribution to the way that such discoveries as the BL-15 will be treated in the future by the MOD. His input to the forum on the subject has brought a personal sense of just how the loss of a family member in the Great War still resonates even after so many years have passed for truly that war has cast a long shadow.

Finally it is very gratifying to know that at 1000hrs on the 22nd October 2014 at Y Farm War Cemetery ten soldiers will be given the dignity of a named headstone and five for whom fate has denied such an honour will rest as “Unknown” when it may well have been that all fifteen soldiers would have been buried as “Known Unto God”.

Lest we forget

Regards

Norman

[glosterman]

Great News - well done to all involved.

Names are listed in this article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/21/world-war-1-soldiers-killed-in-battle-identified_n_5009725.html

Nothing on other UK media sites at the moment but hopefully BBC & Sky & papers will carry in the morning.

KH

[keithmroberts]

It really is good news that no less than 10 of the men have been positively identified, and it reflects credit on those whose painstaking effort has made this possible. Hopefully the MOD will accept this as a precedent, and at least in cases where there is any possibility of identification will pay for DNA sampling of remains.

Keith

[Seadog]

The BBC has this excellent detailed article listing the names and more. What a remarkable result when you remember that these soldiers fell almost 100 years ago at the very beginning of the war.

BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26690387

A quote from the article which says it all

And for Maureen Simpson, 75, from Stradbroke, Sheffield, who is the grand-daughter of Pte Brameld, the process had allowed her to "close the book" on the mystery of her relative's final resting place.

"It will be lovely to see them properly buried. It is what they deserve," she said

Norman