"Oh No!" CWGC Railway Chateau cemetery "trial"

[Chief_Chum]

Dear All,

I have not seen any mention of this anywhere on the Forum yet but I think it should be brought to everyone's attention.

I received the following email from a friend who has been involved in battlefield touring for many, many years. Read on and see what you think...

"Hi,

Reference the Dolomite gravel/stone at Railway Chateau Cemetery, Ypres

This is a "trial" at Railway Chateau cemetery by CWGC. We understand that there is another communal cemetery at Dunquerque which has been treated with a different gravel surface but we haven't seen that one.

We think the CWGC would appreciate feedback. We presume that the Commission has been given a project to investigate other surfaces as planning ahead for climate change.

I have yet to investigate to see if there is anything on the CWGC website about it. Nothing is obvious as I look on it quite regularly. We

found out about it because we were in Ypres for Armistice ceremonies and were told by local friends to go and look at it.

Needless to say, the temperature of those of us who saw it last Wednesday went sky high! As we turned the corner from the long grass path by the hedge (could this bit of grass not have been gravelled over to see the effect instead of the graves?) the impact of the stone surface hit us like a thump in the stomach. The only way I can describe it.

I have to say that I am prepared to accept that one day it may be necessary to remove the grass from cemeteries if it is so dry that it turns brown and looks a mess. But in Belgium this is not likely to happen for many years, given it's damp climate being so close to the sea. Having said that, it is something that the CWGC will have to think about and plan for. However, if there is any whiff of the government looking ahead to make savings on mowing and cutting staff, then we would not be happy with that.

This particular cemetery did, according to local knowledge, have lovely green grass. It is infrequently visited, so that may be one reason it is acceptable to make a trial here. On the other hand, it won't be seen by many visitors to give an opinion. There were only a handful of visitors leaving a message in the Visitors' Book since May.

The planting is of mediterraean plants specially brought in, which may or may not survive the Belgian winter.

On first sight it looked a real mess and because the ground was damp it looked like hardcore had just been laid. Perhaps when the air is bone dry, as in the drought conditions they are expecting one day, it will be white and glistening and may look ok. But not at the moment. We hear that local cats and dogs have already been using it as a new loo.

My opinion is that this particular stone does not look good and makes it look like a car park. I think there may be better ways to replace the grass, such as more decorative laying of gravel and keeping the borders around the graves separate to the gravel or stonework.

Feel free to pass all or some of these photos on. I took them last Wednesday.

Kindest regards"

[stevem49]

I was under the impression that it was ground under repair when I visited at the end of October.

I would not be happy to see it as permanent.

http://www.ypressalient.co.uk/CWGC%20Pages...%20Cemetery.htm

SM

[iain mchenry]

Hi Taff,

I was made aware of this recently. Personally I think it looks atrocious and the CWGC will have an email re my thoughts. I am aware though, that this is only a trial. I had heard that 4 cemeteries, 2 in Belgium and 2 in France were being trialled with different surfaces in adapting to Climate change. I may be wrong, but I think 2 of the cemeteries will trial a drought tolerant turf and the others, dry landscaped as shown in your photos.

I would have thought with the Commissions experience in many countries around the world that they will be able to adapt to Climate change when needed. I just hope that the cemeteries that we know here on the Western Front will not change too much.

Iain

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Iain,

Thank you for your reply.

I heard about the different surfaces too. You would have thought that it would have been possible to try all these out on a field somewhere well away from actual cemeteries.

I agree with you about the Commission's ability to adapt. Let's hope that this never progresses past the trial stage.

It would be terrible if every cemetery in Europe finds itself converted into something which looks like a car park on the basis of unproved science...

"I would not be happy to see it as permanent"

Hi Steve,

We had better all make sure we make our feelings known to the CWGC or it may well become permanent.

With best wishes,

Taff

[phil@basildon]

On a trip to the Ypres region last week I visited Essex Farm cemetery, parts of the cemetary had been laid with astroturf. The areas of the cemetery that had not been so treated were made extremely muddy by the number of visitors, many were loath to venture beyond the astroturf. At Tyne Cot a plastic mesh had been laid with the grass allowed to grow through it. Both these were a better solution than gravel which should be confined at the very most to access paths and which is totally unsuited to any cemetery.

[SteveMarsdin]

Good afternoon All,

You would think that, as the CWGC describes itself as "the largest horticultural organisation in the world" that they would be able to arrive at a solution that didn't change the character of the individual cemetery as much. The "dry" aggregate is totally out of character with the Western Front (if it wasn't for the setting you would think the cemetery was in the Middle East).

However as several posts have reminded us it is only a trial. The CWGC will therefore no doubt appreciate feedback for when they do their evaluation and I would suggest that anyone with strong feelings on the matter contacts them.

[Tim Godden]

I am pretty certain that at no point in the discussions between Ware, Lutyens, Hill et al were the sentences 'it should look like an English county garden, lush and green with floral borders representing the nation of those buried. Or, failing that, aggregate liberally scattered that is not even in contrast to the portland stone of the cemetery architecture'.

I will be writing to the CWGC, as Steve suggests. Let us hope this is a trial and not the future.

Kind regards,

Tim

[River97]

Guy's,

I must agree, it does look very bad indeed.

As a realist, this may be the way of the future. If they do go this way one day then maybe the gravel needs to be a darker colour and a fair bit thicker. This way it will contrast the headstones and will be thick enough for grass and weeds to not be able to grow through.

Cheers Andy.

[Paul Reed]

I think it's an odd decision, but to be fair to CWGC it would be good to know their reasoning behind it. It's a couple of years since I was last at this cemetery, but from memory it is now in the middle of a housing estate. Maybe urban life has an effect on its upkeep?

[Tim Godden]

The decision to make the cemetery more robust to resist the pressures of the surrounding urbanisation is perfectly acceptable. However, key to each cemetery is the design and all that encompasses. I have no doubt William Cowlishaw would have agreed with the principle of his design being modified to suit modern requirements, but, as an artist he will be turning in his grave at the travesty of this 'trial'.

If it is to be done the CWGC should be using a high contrast gravel and, under no circumstances, should the border designs be covered over. It looks like flood debris at present.

Regards,

Tim

[IPT]

Don't understand the science but that looks horrendous.

Surely the time to pour gravel on is AFTER the grass is gone, not many years before. We'd better hope weeds will also be eradicated, along with grass.

[Muerrisch]

Another organisation taken in by the great Climate Change hoax!

I was a Principal Scientific Officer of the Met. Office, so you may take it that I do know a bit about it.

The case for Climate change driven by rising CO2 is far from proven, believe me.

Methinks we need a big scare every now and then: remember 'The Ice Age' predicted in the 70s, remember the Millenium Bog, remember Avian Flu?

The difference with this new one is that the world is throwing a vast fortune at 'the science' and countermeasures ...... and it may well never happen!

[mbloy]

Obvious to all this trial is a complete disaster. Can't conceive a worse 'solution'. Would presume CWGC will reach similar conclusion.

mb

[Seadog]

Absolutely appalling, mind you this comes as no surprise at all considering the recent actions of the Commission with regard to their total ignorance of the use of the “Debt of Honour" database and other issues including the public notification of interments taking place in their war cemeteries etc. Something tells me that these people are a little out of touch with the general feelings and expectations pf the public. Time for a change in the management structure methinks and the sooner the better.

Norman

[stevem49]

I think it's an odd decision, but to be fair to CWGC it would be good to know their reasoning behind it. It's a couple of years since I was last at this cemetery, but from memory it is now in the middle of a housing estate. Maybe urban life has an effect on its upkeep?

It has easy access and the surroundings are pleasant gardens. I would think that the local family next to it, with their lovely garden are not impressed by the CWGC efforts (or lack of)

SM

[Marc Thompson]

The comments in the visitors book sum it up!

Looking at some of the recipients that the original e-mail and photographs has now been forwarded onto expect to see this published in the Daily Mail in the not too distant future.

Below is the photograph of the cemetery "as was" taken from the CWGC website.

Marc

[keithfazzani]

Another organisation taken in by the great Climate Change hoax!

I was a Principal Scientific Officer of the Met. Office, so you may take it that I do know a bit about it.

The case for Climate change driven by rising CO2 is far from proven, believe me.

Methinks we need a big scare every now and then: remember 'The Ice Age' predicted in the 70s, remember the Millenium Bog, remember Avian Flu?

The difference with this new one is that the world is throwing a vast fortune at 'the science' and countermeasures ...... and it may well never happen!

May I support your comments. Everytime I hear about global warming the Millennium Bug comes to mind. The small company I worked for spent thousands of pounds protecting itself against something that didn't and never had existed. Around the world billions must have been wasted. Some people will make a lot of money out of it, as they did back then.

[JimSmithson]

I will definitely be calling in at the Northern France HQ in Beaurains when I am there at Christmas and I will give them a (polite) personal view of the experiment.

Jim

[Chief_Chum]

Thanks for adding the "Before" photo Mark.

Just for comparison...

.

[J Banning]

Thanks for bringing this to all our attention Taff. I haven’t been to this cemetery for a number of years and agree that it looks absolutely dreadful. I am sure that negative feedback will result in them keeping this merely as an experiment. I’ll be dropping the CWGC an email too – the more comments they receive, the better.

I have no wish to hijack the thread but can I draw your attention to another thread in the ‘Battlefields in Danger’ section about wind turbines planned to obscure the view from Tyne Cot to Ypres - click Skyline of Zonnebeke in Danger. I am surprised at the lack of comment from forum members when it will have such an effect on the view back to Ypres. So, whilst not exactly altering a cemetery (as this CWGC experiment clearly does), the wind turbines will certainly alter the view.

Cheers

[Chief_Chum]

Good to hear from you Jeremy.

I had spotted Chum Pharoah's post about the windfarm. It seems that the whole world is going collectively crazy.

Good to hear Grump speaking with proper knowledge of the subject, telling us what most sensible people already know...

Cheers,

Taff

[Dragon]

As the CWGC has cemeteries in all sorts of climates, you would think that they already have suitable places to try out aggregate and drought-loving plants in a climatically-appropriate setting.

[59165]

Methinks we need a big scare every now and then: remember 'The Ice Age' predicted in the 70s, remember the Millenium Bog, remember Avian Flu?

...... and it may well never happen!

Hang on there,Davy lad.

Weren't there a host of folks saying that 'there will be no war.' 'It'll all be over by Christmas'. 'I have in my hand a piece of Andrex.'etc.etc.?

Both you & I don't know what the future will bring but,I just know that gravel of assorted kinds has been around CWGC graves in a lot of French Communal attachment cemeteries since the 1st days of the war.

No one has complained about that on here but,then again,not too many folk visit the Communals in relation to the more popular sites.

Will it happen to the larger grassy sites? It'd be a big scare if it did.It would look out of place at El Alamein,for God's sake.

Dave.

[Jim Strawbridge]

No-one has actually said it on here yet but could this be a CWGC cost-saving exercise? Once gravelled the sites will be very easy to maintain and cost only a fraction of the cost of a grassy, landscaped one. Labour must be one of the largest single costs that the CWGC has to bear and gravelling will greatly reduce this. I am sure that the CWGC is under the same fiscal pressures as everyone else and the financial support from the member countries that contribute will expect some prudential efforts to manage the budget. Just a thought and I hope that I am wrong but this could be the start of an ever increasing trend by the CWGC.

[richardIII]

I can't believe that anyone at the CWGC thought this was a good idea. Like many others I am far from convinced about this global warming (if it is happening at all) being man made. It is like a steam roller out of control and it allows no contrary opinion. Cease this trial now it is awful,

Richard