Private Alfred Wiseman 1/5 Notts and Derbyshire Regiment

[Antony Stanley]

My Great Great Uncle Alfred Wiseman was a private in 1/5 battalion Notts and Derbyshire Regiment. He died of his wounds on 29th May 1917 and is remembered at at Lillers Cemetery in France. I am trying to find out how and where he received his wounds. Can anyone shed any light on this for me please?

Alfred was born in Foston, Lincolnshire but was living with his sister's family in Ilkeston, Derbyshire when he enlisted in 1915.

[apwright]

Welcome to the forum, Gilbert.

You're in luck!

201322 (ex 4053) Alfred WISEMAN has 29 pages (it says) of Service Records on Ancestry - number wrongly indexed as 4033.

Enlisted 10/3/1915 at Derby. Address at the time: 29 Whitworth Rd, Ilkeston.

Wounded 28/5/17

Admitted No.8 [or maybe 18, or both!] Casualty Clearing Station 29/5/17

Died of wounds (gunshot wound with compound fracture of right thigh) 29/5/17

Hopefully an N&DR expert can tell you what the 1/5th Battalion were doing on 28 May.

Do you have access to Ancestry?

Adrian

[stevem49]

The Battalion was in Brigade reserve at Bully-Grenay. They provided working parties, so I presume he must have been wounded on a WP.

Steve M

[mikebriggs]

Hello Gilbert

Paragraph from 1/5th Battn History; adds only a bit to what Steve has posted

cheers

Mike

[mikebriggs]

Here is the trench map showing Cite De Garrennes and Fosse 3 from 1917. jumping off trench has be around there somewhere

The 139th Brigade were stuck in this 'city' fighting for much of mid-late 1917 and early 1918; must have been a mess!

There are some good panaromic photos in Peter Barton's book.

I can send you a high res image by e-mail; its too big to post on forum

cheers

Mike

[BRONNO]

My Great Great Uncle Alfred Wiseman was a private in 1/5 battalion Notts and Derbyshire Regiment. He died of his wounds on 29th May 1917 and is remembered at at Lillers Cemetery in France. I am trying to find out how and where he received his wounds. Can anyone shed any light on this for me please?

Alfred was born in Foston, Lincolnshire but was living with his sister's family in Ilkeston, Derbyshire when he enlisted in 1915.

Here are the events around the dates you mention.

WAR DIARY 5TH BATTALION N&D Regt.

1/5th. In Divisional Reserve in Billets in BULLY GRENAY.

2nd inst. Lt.Col. B.H. CHECKLAND M.C. ceased to command the Battalion.

6/11th. Relieved 4th LEICESTERSHIRE Regt in Brigade Support, PIERRE Sector. In cellars in vicinity of M.10.d. and M.11.c. Daily - Batt. engaged Digging cable trenches and work on improving defence of Sector.

10th. inst. Major G.G. GILLIGAN 4th A. and S. assumed command of the Battalion.

12th. Relieved 6th SHERWOOD FORESTERS in Right Subsector - 7th SHERWOOD FORESTERS on left and 138th Brigade on right.

13/18th. In trenches. Line held by outposts with Main line of defence from M.12.c.51.05. along COWDEN, CORAL and COOPER TRENCHES to N.1.c. During this tour work was concentrated on improvement of defences. Enemy very active with artillery and Trench Mortars.

19th. Relieved by 6th N.STAFFS - Moved back into Divisional Reserve at BULLY GRENAY.

20/24th. In Divisional Reserve at BULLY GRENAY.

25th. Relieved 4th Leicestershire Regiment in Brigade Reserve, LIEVIN Sector. Billetted in cellars - H.Q. RED MILL (M.27.d.7.8.) and vicinity. Batt'n at work nightly improving defences of Sector.

26/30th. In Brigade Reserve.

31st. Relieved 6th SHERWOOD FORESTERS in Right Subsector - 10th CANADIAN Inf.Bde. on Right, 7th SHERWOOD FORESTERS on left.

BRONNO.

[Antony Stanley]

Welcome to the forum, Gilbert.

You're in luck!

201322 (ex 4053) Alfred WISEMAN has 29 pages (it says) of Service Records on Ancestry - number wrongly indexed as 4033.

Enlisted 10/3/1915 at Derby. Address at the time: 29 Whitworth Rd, Ilkeston.

Wounded 28/5/17

Admitted No.8 [or maybe 18, or both!] Casualty Clearing Station 29/5/17

Died of wounds (gunshot wound with compound fracture of right thigh) 29/5/17

Hopefully an N&DR expert can tell you what the 1/5th Battalion were doing on 28 May.

Do you have access to Ancestry?

Adrian

Dear Adrian,

Thank you very much for your help. I found it very moving to read about Alfred's wounds and his death. He has no known grave but may be one of the unidentified allied soldiers buried at Lillers. From the description of the cemetery on the CWGC website it appears that the area that where Alfred was initially buried suffered from German shelling and his remains would have been destroyed.

I found out about Alfred this summer when I read a small book that had belonged to my late Grandmother (Alfred's niece). To book called a comforter contains biblical quotations and space for each day of the year. The entry for 29th May reads 'Alfred Wiseman died of wounds in France' and is written in my Nan's youthful handwriting.

Regards

Gilbert Butler

[Antony Stanley]

Here are the events around the dates you mention.

WAR DIARY 5TH BATTALION N&D Regt.

1/5th. In Divisional Reserve in Billets in BULLY GRENAY.

2nd inst. Lt.Col. B.H. CHECKLAND M.C. ceased to command the Battalion.

6/11th. Relieved 4th LEICESTERSHIRE Regt in Brigade Support, PIERRE Sector. In cellars in vicinity of M.10.d. and M.11.c. Daily - Batt. engaged Digging cable trenches and work on improving defence of Sector.

10th. inst. Major G.G. GILLIGAN 4th A. and S. assumed command of the Battalion.

12th. Relieved 6th SHERWOOD FORESTERS in Right Subsector - 7th SHERWOOD FORESTERS on left and 138th Brigade on right.

13/18th. In trenches. Line held by outposts with Main line of defence from M.12.c.51.05. along COWDEN, CORAL and COOPER TRENCHES to N.1.c. During this tour work was concentrated on improvement of defences. Enemy very active with artillery and Trench Mortars.

19th. Relieved by 6th N.STAFFS - Moved back into Divisional Reserve at BULLY GRENAY.

20/24th. In Divisional Reserve at BULLY GRENAY.

25th. Relieved 4th Leicestershire Regiment in Brigade Reserve, LIEVIN Sector. Billetted in cellars - H.Q. RED MILL (M.27.d.7.8.) and vicinity. Batt'n at work nightly improving defences of Sector.

26/30th. In Brigade Reserve.

31st. Relieved 6th SHERWOOD FORESTERS in Right Subsector - 10th CANADIAN Inf.Bde. on Right, 7th SHERWOOD FORESTERS on left.

BRONNO.

Dear Bronno,

Thank you very much for your help.

Is there an online source of battalion photos?

Regards

Gilbert Butler

[Antony Stanley]

Here is the trench map showing Cite De Garrennes and Fosse 3 from 1917. jumping off trench has be around there somewhere

The 139th Brigade were stuck in this 'city' fighting for much of mid-late 1917 and early 1918; must have been a mess!

There are some good panaromic photos in Peter Barton's book.

I can send you a high res image by e-mail; its too big to post on forum

cheers

Mike

Dear Mike,

Yes please to your kind offer. My email address is koalacottage@tiscali.co.uk

Regards

Gilbert Butler

[Antony Stanley]

The Battalion was in Brigade reserve at Bully-Grenay. They provided working parties, so I presume he must have been wounded on a WP.

Steve M

Thank you Steve.

[Antony Stanley]

Dear Adrian,

Thank you very much for your help. I found it very moving to read about Alfred's wounds and his death. He has no known grave but may be one of the unidentified allied soldiers buried at Lillers. From the description of the cemetery on the CWGC website it appears that the area that where Alfred was initially buried suffered from German shelling and his remains would have been destroyed.

I found out about Alfred this summer when I read a small book that had belonged to my late Grandmother (Alfred's niece). To book called a comforter contains biblical quotations and space for each day of the year. The entry for 29th May reads 'Alfred Wiseman died of wounds in France' and is written in my Nan's youthful handwriting.

Regards

Gilbert Butler

PS I forget to say that yes I have visitted ancestry and found a page of Alfred's service records that has his enlistment details. I shall have another go and see if i can find some of the other 28 images! Ta again Gilbert

[Antony Stanley]

Welcome to the forum, Gilbert.

You're in luck!

201322 (ex 4053) Alfred WISEMAN has 29 pages (it says) of Service Records on Ancestry - number wrongly indexed as 4033.

Enlisted 10/3/1915 at Derby. Address at the time: 29 Whitworth Rd, Ilkeston.

Wounded 28/5/17

Admitted No.8 [or maybe 18, or both!] Casualty Clearing Station 29/5/17

Died of wounds (gunshot wound with compound fracture of right thigh) 29/5/17

Hopefully an N&DR expert can tell you what the 1/5th Battalion were doing on 28 May.

Do you have access to Ancestry?

Adrian

Adrian,

Can you tell me please if the Casualty Clearing Stations 8 and 18 in Lillers?

Regards

Gilbert

[BRONNO]

Dear Bronno,

Thank you very much for your help.

Is there an online source of battalion photos?

Regards

Gilbert Butler

Gilbert,

Not as far as i know, perhaps you could try John Gregory a forum member who has knowledge of the 5th Battalion Notts and Derby Regt. BRONNO.