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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

The Navy


stuartd

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I'm not sure what RFR, RMA and RMLI actually are and how all these differents 'sections' differed in their roles. I assume RM is Royal Marines - what was their role in the Great War? So much to learn and all new!

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RFR = Royal Fleet Reserve - a reserve formed from men who had previous naval service (RN or RM).

RMLI = Royal Marines Light Infantry, merged in 1923 (to form the Royal Marines) with RMA = Royal Marine Artillery. To gain an understanding of RMLI and RMA service in WW1, I suggest you read "The Royal Marines" by Julian Thompson readily available in paperback.

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"... men with seafaring experience of some sort formed the RNVR and the RNR(T). How do they differ from the RFR?"

RFR = Royal Fleet Reserve - a reserve formed from men who had previous naval service (RN or RM).

What is not clear about this statement? Others have already explained to you where the RNR and RNVR were recruited.

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Ah yes indeed point taken.

I hope you will appreciate, however, that this area is totally new to me and I am trying to get my head around the plethora of different reserves that the Navy could draw upon and how this worked.

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Yes stuartd, some times you will encounter a level of intolerance here that is only equalled by that of the revisionist armchair generals over on the Western Front Forum - only here the expertise derives from material fact rather than rabid ideology - and the put-downs are invariably more amusing.

If you are serious about your research, drop me a line and I will provide you with a range of primary source references for Kew, Greenwich and Portsmouth.

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The 'History of the Royal Naval Reserve' by Frank Bowen and published monthly by The Lloyds Corporation in 1924/5, is factual and a good read. Takes the furious guesswork out of finding out what rabid ideology is though.

Regards Charles

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That is a very kind offer from you to direct me towards the primary sources, yet I'm afraid that time is one thing that I don't seem to have much of at the moment! This is a great shame as I would thoroughly enjoy spending some time at the PRO and the others that you mention.

I would certainly be open to any of your suggestions on secondary sources.

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I assume RM is Royal Marines - what was their role in the Great War? So much to learn and all new!

As previously mentioned the RMLI = Royal Marines Light Infantry and RMA = Royal Marine Artillery. Their roles were enormously varied in WWI, because they were part on the largest navy in the world and were usually involved in anything the Navy was doing! They served in the air, on land and at sea. Their diversity is hard to sum up in a few words.

In the RNAS they were pilots, air and ground crew; some also formed the initial personnel for the armoured car contingent!

On land RMLI the mainly acted like army infantry units, both fighting and for garrison duty. The RMA started with the Royal Naval Division, but then were used in specialist artillery work. The main ones included Anti Aircraft units and the 15 inch howitzer crews (these also included naval personnel).

At sea the Royall Marines would be ready for armed boarding, but one of their regular functions were to man the main and secondary armament: one main turret on any capital ship was manned by RMLI and RMA.

They also took part in amphibious assaults such as Ostende and Zeebruge raids.

General Sir H.E. Blumberg's Britain's Sea Soldiers 1914-1919 was recently reprinted and is highly recommended.

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In 1914 Britain was not a military power, certainly not a continental one, she was a naval one. A contrast between British naval and military arms can be seen in the availability of machine guns and heavy artillery. In September 1914 the Navy provided 60 machine guns purely for their new armoured cars; that was more than enough to equip an Army Corps. In June 1915 (according to the History of the Ministry of Munitions) the entire British army only had 61 of what they laughingly referred to as heavy guns: 6 inch or larger. On the Eclipse Class of minor cruisers alone, all launched before the Second Boer War, there were 81 X 6 inch guns, plus 36 X 12 pounders (the Royal Horse Artillery used 13 pounders; 36 would equip 6 batteries) and 18 machine guns (more than in an army division). No wonder ships of this class provided fire support in the Mediterranean, including for the Gallipoli landings! But that was only one class; the Iron Duke Class of super Dreadnought battleships, which commissioned in 1914, had 48 X 6 inch guns in their secondary armament plus 20 machine guns. Queen Elizabeth and Royal Sovereign classes of super Dreadnought battleships, which were being built in 1914 had over 150 X 6 inch guns in their secondary armaments and 50 machine guns. The latter alone was about the initial compliment for machine guns for I Corps of the British Army deployed in France and Flanders in August 1914!

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That really is very interesting sruff and illustrates the incredible fire power available to the Navy. What are secondary armaments by the way?

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I hope you will appreciate, however, that this area is totally new to me and I am trying to get my head around the plethora of different reserves that the Navy could draw upon and how this worked.

The various units and reserves of the Royal Navy are confusing when first encountering them, but then so are those for the Army – especially before 1908! Consider that there were regulars, militia, volunteers, yeomanry and then there were territorials and special reserve!

I hope this will help you: Royal Naval ratings, Royal Marines Light Infantry and Royal Marine Artillery men were the regulars. They could opt to join the Royal Fleet Reserve. So the latter were the regular reservists.

The Royal Naval Reserve was a reserve for men with seafaring experience, gained in the Mercantile Marine. In effect the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section and Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Emergency Reserve were separate reserves for specific jobs and there was rarely a crossover between the 3. The Royal Naval Reserve was a reserve of seamen and stokers for larger vessels; it was set up in the mid 19th century to provide reserves for the expansion of the fleet after the abolition of press gangs. Some were also using the high tech wireless. Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section had been formed only a few years before, with the idea of using fishing vessels as auxiliary small vessels mostly for anti submarine duties. The Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Emergency Reserve served as fishermen, but brought under naval discipline.

The Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve was a reserve for men without formal sea going experience. They served in so many roles such as: seamen in large vessels and in motor boats; shore wireless (later known as radio) station; anti aircraft personnel and also electrical roles.

Edited by per ardua per mare per terram
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So the RN ratings, RMLI and RMA men would serve for how many years and then rejoin civilian life but earn a little extra by being in the RFR?

I guess then that as a fisherman in this period, you could join the either the Royal Naval Reserve Territorial Section or the Royal Naval Reserve Territorial Section Emergency Reserve. I presume this would entitle you to some extra pay, with one of them (the latter) bringing you under naval discipline in times of war, and one not, but you still provided a vital servie to your country.

What then was the Royal Naval Reserve (Trawler)? Or is that merely another term for one of the above?

What were secondary armaments by the way?

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the Royal Naval Reserve Territorial Section or the Royal Naval Reserve Territorial Section Emergency Reserve.

I am very sorry to have added in some confusion. These should read Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section or the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Emergency Reserve. I have amended the original post accordingly.

I have seen the first written as the Royal Naval Reserve (Trawler), but so far not the second. That would be a way of distinguishing between reservists with different experience; fishermen were unlikely to be picked to serve on battleships.

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1) So the RN ratings, RMLI and RMA men would serve for how many years and then rejoin civilian life but earn a little extra by being in the RFR?

2) I guess then that as a fisherman in this period, you could join the either the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section or the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Emergency Reserve. I presume this would entitle you to some extra pay, with one of them (the latter) bringing you under naval discipline in times of war, and one not, but you still provided a vital servie to your country.

3) What were secondary armaments by the way?

1) As with the army there were different periods one could sign up for. As special service engagement of 5 years in the colours and 7 years in reserve had recently been introduced. The service time to pension was 22 years of adult service (from age 18), but men could serve in the RFR up to 50. In contrast to the Army: boys of 16 could, and did, serve in war zones. John Travers Cornwell, joined the Navy at 15 (1915) and the following year was at the Battle of Jutland, before he was 16½, with full knowledge of all authorities. He died of wounds and was awarded the Victoria Cross.

2) Both the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section and the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Emergency Reserve brought you under naval discipline. The difference was the former was voluntary and the latter conscription. The Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Emergency Reserve brought under naval control (in theory) all fishermen who to that point had not joined the Royal Naval Reserve (Trawler). I say in theory because there is a lot of evidence to show that there was a lot of friction between the Navy and fishermen.

3) Secondary armaments were the next down from the primary armaments, often called the “big guns.” The Iron Duke Class had 13.5 inch guns and both the Queen Elizabeth and Royal Sovereign classes had 15 inch guns as their primary armament.

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