HMS Hindustan or HMS Vindictive

[Labeline]

My Great Uncle, Able Seaman Frederick Robert Scott (J.16005) was supposedly killed on board HMS Vindictive on 23rd April 1918. That is what the Commonwealth War Graves records show and is what the family has always believed. Indeed an image of Vindictive appears on his grave. However, according to his service record his last ship was the Hindustan. How do I find our which is correct?

[kin47]

Hello

There were a number of men who were taken from repairing ships for the operation: NEPTUNE, CANADA, EMPEROR OF INDIA, CONQUEROR. It was a matter of mustering as many personnel for the operation. Those surviving returned to their respective ships after the operation.

All best

don

[SiegeGunner]

The pre-dreadnought battleship Hindustan was the depot ship for the Zeebrugge and Ostend raids, moored in the Swin. If Scott's service record gives his last ship as Hindustan, it would seem likely that he was a member of the seamen's storming party embarked aboard Vindictive for the raid, rather than a member of the crew of Vindictive. Hopefully one of our specialists in the Z&O raids, Dom Walsh or Paul Kendall will be able to cast more light.

[Labeline]

The pre-dreadnought battleship Hindustan was the depot ship for the Zeebrugge and Ostend raids, moored in the Swin. If Scott's service record gives his last ship as Hindustan, it would seem likely that he was a member of the seamen's storming party embarked aboard Vindictive for the raid, rather than a member of the crew of Vindictive. Hopefully one of our specialists in the Z&O raids, Dom Walsh or Paul Kendall will be able to cast more light.

Thanks for that. I have contacted my uncle in the States who had the benefit of knowing Fred's brothers and sisters. Apparently Fred was one of the first off Vindictive and was gunned down as he landed. He was given a full military funeral from his parents house in Wimbledon to his final resting place at Gap Road cemetery. I visited the site today, 11.11.2009 and paid my respects and tidied his grave. It is covered in Vindictive references. Hopefully someone will be able to clarify things for me. I will see if I can find any newspaper references to it.

Many thanks for your help.

Paul57

[domwalsh]

I can confirm that you great uncle served at Zeebrugge. He is listed among those who participated in the ballot for the VC (those who died were deemed to have participated by being eligible to be voted for). The VC went to AB McKenzie (see his great nephew's fantastic website). The Hindustan, as has been noted, was a holding ship for Zeebrugge raid. The VC ballot should be noted on his record of service. I will check my files at home to see if I have anything else on him. Delighted to see his photo.

Best,

Dom

[Labeline]

I can confirm that you great uncle served at Zeebrugge. He is listed among those who participated in the ballot for the VC (those who died were deemed to have participated by being eligible to be voted for). The VC went to AB McKenzie (see his great nephew's fantastic website). The Hindustan, as has been noted, was a holding ship for Zeebrugge raid. The VC ballot should be noted on his record of service. I will check my files at home to see if I have anything else on him. Delighted to see his photo.

Best,

Dom

Dom

Thanks for that. Yes the ballot is noted on his service record. His grave is marked with HMS Vindictive. The story is that he was fatally wounded as he participated in the raid. I am assuming that he must have survived long enough to be taken back on board because he was given a naval funeral with his coffin be taken on a gun carriage to the cemetery. Unfortunately 1918/1919 was a bad year for the Scott's. Following Fred's death his mother was heartbroken and died a year later closely followed by his youngest sister.

I have only just started following the military lines in my family and have been looking also at my Grandfather who lost a leg in WW1, my dad's stepfather who was in the Royal Artillery in WW1 and his cousin who was killed aged 19 at Villers Bocage whilst commanding a Honey tank in an engagement with Michael Wittman.

Thanks for your interest, yes we are really pleased to have a photo albeit a small one

Regards

Paul

[SiegeGunner]

Paul,

AB F R Scott (J.16005 - Po.) is listed in the 'Killed' section rather than the 'Died of Wounds' section of the Casualty List in Percival Hislam's 1918 book "How We Twisted the Dragon's Tail". The Roll of Honour in Paul Kendall's "The Zeebrugge Raid 1918 - The Finest Feat of Arms" does not differentiate kia/dow, but he is listed there as 'Scott Frederick, J16005, HMS Vindictive'. Two other men are listed to 'HMS Hindustan'. When Paul surfaces, he will no doubt tell you the source of his attributions of men to ships.

There was considerable chaos as Vindictive came alongside, already heavily shot up as she approached the Mole, and it was not possible to deploy/use all of the landing brows (ramps), so the storming parties were crowded onto the remaining brows. Men were shot down on the deck, part-way up the brows and as they reached the Mole parapet. Men killed or wounded on the brows were passed back down to the ship to clear the way, and once the storming parties were away, dead and wounded were retrieved from the parapet. When the landing force withdrew back to Vindictive at the close of the raid, they took as many as possible of the dead and wounded with them, and the small number left behind were among those who fell furthest away from the ship. Those who died on the Mole and were recovered to Vindictive were, technically-speaking, among the few men killed on foreign soil whose bodies were 'repatriated' during the war.

I'm glad you were able to visit Fred's grave today, but sorry that the weather in Wimbledon was not especially clement. I live about a mile from Gap Road cemetery and would be pleased to meet you there if/when you come again. My avatar is the stamp of the OC of the Royal Naval Siege Guns, Captain Henry Halahan RN, who left that unit in early 1918 to take command of the naval storming parties training for the Zeebrugge raid, and who was killed by machine-gun fire on the foredeck of Vindictive in the moments before she came alongside the Mole.

Mick

[Labeline]

Paul,

AB F R Scott (J.16005 - Po.) is listed in the 'Killed' section rather than the 'Died of Wounds' section of the Casualty List in Percival Hislam's 1918 book "How We Twisted the Dragon's Tail". The Roll of Honour in Paul Kendall's "The Zeebrugge Raid 1918 - The Finest Feat of Arms" does not differentiate kia/dow, but he is listed there as 'Scott Frederick, J16005, HMS Vindictive'. Two other men are listed to 'HMS Hindustan'. When Paul surfaces, he will no doubt tell you the source of his attributions of men to ships.

There was considerable chaos as Vindictive came alongside, already heavily shot up as she approached the Mole, and it was not possible to deploy/use all of the landing brows (ramps), so the storming parties were crowded onto the remaining brows. Men were shot down on the deck, part-way up the brows and as they reached the Mole parapet. Men killed or wounded on the brows were passed back down to the ship to clear the way, and once the storming parties were away, dead and wounded were retrieved from the parapet. When the landing force withdrew back to Vindictive at the close of the raid, they took as many as possible of the dead and wounded with them, and the small number left behind were among those who fell furthest away from the ship. Those who died on the Mole and were recovered to Vindictive were, technically-speaking, among the few men killed on foreign soil whose bodies were 'repatriated' during the war.

I'm glad you were able to visit Fred's grave today, but sorry that the weather in Wimbledon was not especially clement. I live about a mile from Gap Road cemetery and would be pleased to meet you there if/when you come again. My avatar is the stamp of the OC of the Royal Naval Siege Guns, Captain Henry Halahan RN, who left that unit in early 1918 to take command of the naval storming parties training for the Zeebrugge raid, and who was killed by machine-gun fire on the foredeck of Vindictive in the moments before she came alongside the Mole.

Mick

Mick

It was not that bad at Gap Road today and I was glad to be there at 11 as I have been meaning to go there for years and at one time lived in Tooting and never went to take a look. What caused me some upset was that no-one else was there. There are 122 servicemen buried in that cemetery all of whom appear to have been forgotten. If you get the chance you should go and take a look at the grave. It's interesting and worthwhile from a Vindictive point of view. It's JB43. It is a family grave not a military one and Fred, his mother,father and sister are all interred there. My dad wants to go and take a look soon and I have said I will take him. When we go I will contact you. He has not seen it since 1932 when he was 4 and his mother dragged him there every week while she tended the grave. The family story was that Fred was killed or wounded as he left the ship and set foot on land but how they knew that I don't know. I would be interested to try to find out whether his funeral was covered by the local press as it seems quite extravagant. Two of my family seem to have died in heroic circumstances, one in WW1 aged 21 and the other in WW2 aged 19. It makes one feel very humble and a little useless being part of a generation brought up in peacetime.

Kind regards

Paul

[SiegeGunner]

Paul,

Merton Local Studies Centre may be able to help you - http://www.londonlibraries.org/library/393...tudies%20Centre. Note the observation that the index to obituaries from the Wimbledon Times archive is held at Wimbledon Central Library.

I have been to Gap Road, and I think I've seen Fred's grave with mentions of Vindictive. I visited nearby Earlsfield cemetery (600+ war graves) last week to place crosses for the NZ Dolores Cross project, and was at Tyne Cot on Sunday, so I stayed at home yesterday.

Do you have any of the various books on the Zeebrugge Raid?

Mick

[Labeline]

Mick

It was not that bad at Gap Road today and I was glad to be there at 11 as I have been meaning to go there for years and at one time lived in Tooting and never went to take a look. What caused me some upset was that no-one else was there. There are 122 servicemen buried in that cemetery all of whom appear to have been forgotten. If you get the chance you should go and take a look at the grave. It's interesting and worthwhile from a Vindictive point of view. It's JB43. It is a family grave not a military one and Fred, his mother,father and sister are all interred there. My dad wants to go and take a look soon and I have said I will take him. When we go I will contact you. He has not seen it since 1932 when he was 4 and his mother dragged him there every week while she tended the grave. The family story was that Fred was killed or wounded as he left the ship and set foot on land but how they knew that I don't know. I would be interested to try to find out whether his funeral was covered by the local press as it seems quite extravagant. Two of my family seem to have died in heroic circumstances, one in WW1 aged 21 and the other in WW2 aged 19. It makes one feel very humble and a little useless being part of a generation brought up in peacetime.

Kind regards

Paul

Mick

Thanks for the steer re the newspaper. No I haven't read anything yet, only what I have found on the internet but I will do so in the future.

regards

Paul

[domwalsh]

Paul,

There's a chance you might find some details in file ADM116/1655 at the National Archives at Kew. This file on Zeebrugge casualties has lots of preliminary lists of dead, wounded etc which may well answer the question of whether he was killed or died of wounds. In a number of cases, where there is doubt over a seaman's fate or identification of body, there are witness statements from fellow seamen (quite graphic at times). It's quite a big document that takes time to go through, but you might just find Fred mentioned.

By the way, I have a note that I was once contacted by somebody who had noted a F Scott on the Mitcham war memorial and concluded that it may well be your great uncle.

Good luck and keep me posted. By the way, any chance of a copy of the photo and service sheet for my files? I'd be very grateful. My email is dominic.walsh@ireland.com.

Best,

Dom

[Labeline]

Just to add a postscript. I have now obtained a newspaper article relating to Fred's funeral which I have passed on to Paul Kelly who is updating his book. I have also been put in touch with a cousin ,Jason Scott who visits Fred's grave frequently. Unfortunately my Uncle in the States died recently so we are hoping to get the mourning brooch containing Fred's photo back from the States so that we can give it back to the Scott family which is where we feel it belongs. Special thanks to Dom Walsh and Paul Kelly for the interest they have shown. Fred Scott has come back to life so far as the family are concerned and for the first time in nearly 100 years his name is spoken on a frequent basis.

Regards

Paul

[Guest the dutchman]

Hi Paul, my name is John Pilcher and my grand mother was Florence Scott (Freds sister so my great uncle also, what relation are we then?) I did have a copy someware of the funeral of Fred in the Wimbledon paper in which my grandmother and her then to be husband Ernest Pilcher are mentioned. I have a photo of Fred standing in uniform I guess it is on Wimbeldon Common but even though I have scanned it it I can't seem to attach it, the message is the file is to large. I also have a photo of their father in Army uniform, which again I have scanned. I am happy to attach to an e-mail and send if you want me to, I would also appreciate any photo's too. Kind regards John

e-mail dutch95@hotmail.com

Just to add a postscript. I have now obtained a newspaper article relating to Fred's funeral which I have passed on to Paul Kelly who is updating his book. I have also been put in touch with a cousin ,Jason Scott who visits Fred's grave frequently. Unfortunately my Uncle in the States died recently so we are hoping to get the mourning brooch containing Fred's photo back from the States so that we can give it back to the Scott family which is where we feel it belongs. Special thanks to Dom Walsh and Paul Kelly for the interest they have shown. Fred Scott has come back to life so far as the family are concerned and for the first time in nearly 100 years his name is spoken on a frequent basis.

Regards

Paul

[Guest the dutchman]

Hi Paul, how thick am I, just linked the photo. How are Bernard & Ross?

kind regs John

[Labeline]

Met with Jason Scott and his sister at the cemetery today and laid a wreath. We all felt that our visit would be appreciated and were glad to be able to meet on such a fantastic day.

[Labeline]

It's been a few years since I posted this topic. Since then, more photographs of Fred as a boy sailor have emerged and also one which must have been taken not long before the raid which i think I passed to Paul Kendall. If I didn't Paul then please let me know and I will get it to you as he deserves to be remembered as he was rather than as a boy. As an aside, as a result of this forum, Jason Scott, John Pilcher and I are now in contact and we are also in touch with Fred's brother Bert 's (HMS Fawn amongst other) granddaughter Anne and Jason, John and I have started discussions about attending the centenary in Zeebrugge in 2018 

[Guest]

My Grandfather Able Seaman John Ahern is listed as serving on the HMS Hindustan, receiving a leg wound from a shell splinter which resulted in amputation at the thigh. Was he at Zeebrugge on the HMS Vindictive? I believe he was a diver prior to being injured and am curious to leran as much as possible about his time in the RN.

[horatio2]

He received his wound in HMS IRIS. Paul Kendall has a note on him in his excellent book "The Zeebrugge Raid 1918 - The Finest Feat of Arms" (p.274).

[Guest]

Thanks Horatio, much appreciated!

[Labeline]

An update to this old post. Today on the centenary of his death,  I visited the Zeebrugge memorials with my cousin's Jason Scott and John Pilcher. We laid a wreath at the memorial closest to the Mole. I intend to lay another wreath on Fred's grave on Wednesday. RIP Fred. Still remembered by your family.

[seaJane]

 

[Labeline]

[Labeline]

We laid two wreaths as above, the first at the large memorial close to the Mole at Zeebrugge on Monday with my cousins Jason and John and on Wednesday at Fred’s grave in Wimbledon which I visited with my dad and mum. Unfortunately the level of maintenance at the cemetery has declined since we were last there and there are several damaged and vandalised gravestones. It’s sad to behold. I tidied up the grave and can fully understand why Jason, who keeps an eye on it and visits regularly, doesn’t like to draw attention to it. There is little respect for the dead these days. It’s a sad indictment on our society.

[domwalsh]

It's very sad the cemetery is in a poor state, but your wreaths are a fitting tribute to Fred.