Two brothers both named on same headstone

[Tom Morgan]

In Tannay British Cemetery, Thiennes, is the grave of Capt. William Frederick Matthews, 1st. South Wales Borderers, attached 1st. East Lancs, died 18.08.18. Also named on the grave is his brother, Capt. John Bredel Matthews, 3rd North Staffs, attached 8th Leicesters, died 01.10.17. Capt. J. B. Matthews has no known grave and is commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial. (I think the family used their personal inscription option to mention one brother on the gravestone of the other).

Has anyone come across these officers before? If so, can anyone tell me where they came from? I know that their parents, Maj. Norman H. Matthews, T.D. and Anna Mary Matthews, lived in Leicestershire during the war, but they seem to have moved about a bit. I wonder where the two brothers would have called home. Does anyone know?

Tom

[sotonmate]

Tom

They have Service Files at Kew:

WO339/7895 for WF

WO339/19443 for JB

That should reveal all (or most,considering the weeding over the years !).

Sotonmate

Stop Press:

http://www.leicestershirevillages.com/eastnorton/70162.html

[Tom Morgan]

Thanks for the Service File details, Sotonmate, and for the Stop Press too, though I have seen that page. It's interesting because it gives details of a window in the church at East Norton, giving thanks for the safe return of all men from the village. Yet also in the church is a brass plaque recording the deaths of the two Matthews brothers. It may be that the plaque is in the church because the parents (or at least one of them) lived in East Norton for part of the war and worshipped there, and without the brothers themselves having any connection with the place. Its that possibility that I'm trying to learn about. The service files are something I need to look at, I think!

Tom

[sotonmate]

Tom

WO339/19443 relates to John Brice MATTHEWS 7 Royal West Kents KIA 14.2.1917. Parents from Harrietsham, Kent,and he lived in Rochester.

WO339/7895 relates to Captain William Frederick MATTHEWS SWB attached to 1 East Lancs when KIA 18.8.1918. Father was Major H H MATTHEWS of 32 Broad Street Hereford, WF lived in York.

Sotonmate

[grantowi]

Heres the family in 1901:

MATTHEWS, Norman H Head Married M 48 1853 Solicitor Dent Yorkshire

MATTHEWS, Anna M Wife Married F 45 1856 Birchanger Essex

MATTHEWS, William F Son M 13 1888 Tickhill Yorkshire

MATTHEWS, Norman H Son M 11 1890 Tickhill Yorkshire

MATTHEWS, John B Son M 10 1891 Torrington Devonshire

MATTHEWS, Philip C Son M 7 1894 Torrington Devonshire

LEA, Louisa Servant Single F 22 1879 Cook (Domestic) Dilwyn Herefordshire

PRITCHARD, Alice Servant F 14 1887 Housemaid (Domestic) Madley Herefordshire

Living at: "wood View", Broomy Hill, Hereford St Nicholas, Herefordshire

Couldn't see a "Norman H" nor a "Philip C" in the NA MIC's

Grant

[judecowie@mac.com]

Heres the family in 1901:

MATTHEWS, Norman H Head Married M 48 1853 Solicitor Dent Yorkshire

MATTHEWS, Anna M Wife Married F 45 1856 Birchanger Essex

MATTHEWS, William F Son M 13 1888 Tickhill Yorkshire

MATTHEWS, Norman H Son M 11 1890 Tickhill Yorkshire

MATTHEWS, John B Son M 10 1891 Torrington Devonshire

MATTHEWS, Philip C Son M 7 1894 Torrington Devonshire

LEA, Louisa Servant Single F 22 1879 Cook (Domestic) Dilwyn Herefordshire

PRITCHARD, Alice Servant F 14 1887 Housemaid (Domestic) Madley Herefordshire

Living at: "wood View", Broomy Hill, Hereford St Nicholas, Herefordshire

Couldn't see a "Norman H" nor a "Philip C" in the NA MIC's

Grant

[Blue Dragoon]

I'm researching this family too.  The two brothers who died in ww1 went to my old school Hereford Cathedral School. I'll send you the finished products.  pm me your email address

[Matlock1418]

On 09/11/2009 at 18:37, Tom Morgan said:

I know that their parents, Maj. Norman H. Matthews, T.D. and Anna Mary Matthews, lived in Leicestershire during the war, but they seem to have moved about a bit.

And after the war it would seem

For Capt. William Frederick MATTHEWS The Graves Register records Maj. Norman H. MATTHEWS, Ashley near Market Harborough and the Headstone Schedule [with the inscription for Capt. John B. MATTHEWS there upon] also similarly records Maj. N. H. MATTHEWS, Ashley near Market Harborough.

M

Edited 19 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
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[david murdoch]

Here's his headstone from Find a grave.  As mentioned previously the part for additional inscription has been used to commemorate his brother. Possibly the family paid extra for this as I think that exceeds the limit for these inscriptions.

Captain William Frederick Matthews (unknown-1918) - Find a Grave Memorial

[david murdoch]

One of my local cemetery CWGC headstones (actually a WW2 one) is to a man who died in the UK so buried at home - it also has an inscription adding his brother who is buried in Karachi War Cemetery. His CWGC stone also has an inscription adding the brother who is buried in Scotland. So each has his brother's name on his headstone.

[Blue Dragoon]

I'm a bit confused about the death of Captain William Frederick Matthews.  He was originally a LCpl in the 1^st Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment then got commissioned to 1^st Battalion South Wales Borderers.  Records show he was then attached to 1^st Battalion East Lancashire Regiment at the time of his death 

 

Edited 21 October , 2022 by Blue Dragoon

[Blue Dragoon]

Cheers Alan, good assessment, thanks

[Blue Dragoon]

found him!!  The typed war diary was incorrectly attributed.  This is the actual extract from the 1 ELR WD.  KIA 17th not 18th In the vicinity of the Left Sub Sector of the Steenbecque Area

[Blue Dragoon]

On 12^th August the Battalion were billeted in the STEENBECQUE area and were undergoing a period of trench rotations to the front line east of the billets. On 14^th they paraded and were inspected by the Commanding Officer before moving out at dusk, transiting the top of the NIEPPE FOREST and MOTTE AU BOIS to the front line in the vicinity of CAUDESCURE.  Enroute they were subjected to light harassing artillery fire which killed 2 and wounded 11 soldiers.  That night they finished the relief in place with 2/5^th Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment.   15^th August was reasonably quiet.  3 soldiers wounded.  16^th August was recorded in the war diary as ‘another average day’ in the trenches. 1 soldier wounded.  At 0800hrs that morning the Divisional Commander had visited the battalion in the trenches. The War diary for 17^th August understatedly records:

‘The weather still remains fine and the usual day on a normal front line passed without any unusual incident. Casualties:

Capt WF Matthews (SWB) attached – killed

Capt CD Gay MC – wounded

2 Lt FJ Williams – wounded

3 Other Ranks – wounded.

 

 

Edited 21 October , 2022 by Blue Dragoon

[Michael Pegum]

Here is another pair of (presumably) brothers on the same headstone. In this case the addition seems to have been due to the fact that Cpl. W. L. Tierney died after the C.W.G.C. cut-off date of 31^st August, 1921.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Michael Pegum said:

Here is another pair of (presumably) brothers on the same headstone. In this case the addition seems to have been due to the fact that Cpl. W. L. Tierney died after the C.W.G.C. cut-off date of 31^st August, 1921.

A private grave plot so them being brothers would seem quite likely.

Joseph Valentine TIERNEY, 73108, RE https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/899576/joseph-valentine-tierney

Walter Leo TIERNEY, 316961, RE - on discharge 4.12.18 a disability pension of 27/6 pw from 5.12.18 to 10.6.19 [that's the 100% degree of disability rate for a pension class V/Sapper or a NCO entitled to a service pension]

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Appears to have the same address and his date of death is the same as the headstone.

Certainly rather looking like brothers resting together.  CWGC Grave register for JVT shows initially as N.M. memorial on a Pr. grave

Makes one wonder when the CWGC stone was erected, about who did the inscription and the payment of the extra cost when done [Nothing showing up as a CWGC Headstone Schedule for JVT]

M

Edit: London Gazette & Edinburgh Gazette confirms MM for 316961 Pnr. W. Tierney, R.E. (Dublin) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30897/supplement/10775  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13320/page/3269 but the rank of Cpl on the headstone is not [yet?] confirmed.

Edited 3 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
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[museumtom]

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Milltown/Farranboley/98668/

[museumtom]

Late Corporal J V Tierney, R.E.-The funeral of the above young gentleman, who died at Glasgow Red Cross Hospital, as the result of an accident while acting as a dispatch rider in France, took place on Saturday morning from the Church of St Teresa, Clarendon Street, after 9 O’clock Mass, for the family burial place, Dean’s Grange. Deceased, who was the eldest son of Mr P Tierney, of Miltown Lodge and Chatham Street, was very popular among his associated, and prior to his joining the forces had achieved considerable fame as a Rugby footballer. The extremely large and representative cortege which followed his remains to their last resting place bore eloquent testimony to the esteem in which he was held. The chief mourners were;- Patrick Tierney (father), Walter, Patrick, Jack, and Tommy Tierney (brothers), and Joseph Tierney. The clergy present included;- Rev. A. Corbett, O.D.C., St Teresa’s, Clarendon Street; Rev. J. J. O’Reilly, Rev. L. Healy, St Mary’s College, Rathmines, and Rev. W Thornton, Rev. A Corbett, O.D.C., J Clancy, M.P.

[Matlock1418]

12 minutes ago, museumtom said:

Late Corporal J V Tierney, R.E.-The funeral of the above young gentleman, who died at Glasgow Red Cross Hospital, as the result of an accident while acting as a dispatch rider in France,

That dispatch riding [RE Signals] would appear likely to account for JVT's Corporal rank.

Given the private family grave plot, large cortege, family address and [my impression anyway] that he seemingly came from a relatively well to do family I wonder if he took his own motorbike with him to France??

M

Edited 3 July , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, museumtom said:

Pulmonary tuberculosis = Would not be uncommon for a soldier discharged with a 27/6 pw pension [100% disability] to have already been diagnosed with TB under the 1918 RW [see pension index card in earlier post above] - the intention of a maximum rate of disability pension by that date was intended to try and keep such men out of employment so avoiding/reducing transmission amongst the workforce/general population.

There was a general presumption of liability for TB if a man had served abroad, hence a disability pension for him - Confirmed Pul. Tuberculosis on his corresponding Pension Ledger Page

Mother made one then a later second claim for her two sons - Walter Leo TIERNEY recorded as Private/Pioneer, 316961, RE [So still wondering where that private inscription of "Cpl" at CWGC came from???] - Whilst she got 5/- pw for life for JVT [would have presumed under the 1918 RW though the 1919 RW seems cited as Art 21(1C)] her later WLT atttempt [presumably under the 1919 RW] doesn't look to have been very successful as the claim was seemingly made in 1926 - Refusal Articles 21(1A), (1B) & (1C) [thus her application it seems was considered to have been lacking pre-war dependance, lacking infirmity/inability to self-support & in pecuniary need and made too late after his removal from duty/discharge - i.e. outwith the seven year window] - See Joint Pension Ledger Page at WFA/Fold3

M

Edited 3 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
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