What Happened To Men Who Refused

[1st_east_yorks]

SAD - A debate that's always good for a fight!!

I have just spent a while reading through the comments and "tug of war" (a nice way of describing it!!), regarding this emotional topic.

I would imagine (I have no evidence, only empathy), that any soldier detailed to execution duty would have his opinion changed by the nature of the crime in question i.e. If the condemned man was a murderer, rapist or deserter that had caused the death of other soldiers by his "cowardly" action, then I would not think that an eyebrow would have been raised at his execution. Conversely, if the man was being executed for some of the more trivial (to us) crimes, then I am sure that the outlook would have been different (I cant remenber these crimes offhand, but drunkeness seems to have been one - Yes, I know it could lead to more serious things.) Certainly, when some of the younger soldiers (18/19??) were executed, it must have emotionally tugged at the heart strings of more experienced soldiers when asked to end thier lives.

In conclusion, I am sure that the crime would be the driving force behind whether soldiers were willing to take part in executions or not. I would imagine this to be the case then and now.

This does lead to another important question - Did the soldiers know what the condemned was convicted of? Was it made public knowledge or read out before the execution was conducted?

Sean.

[Heid the Ba]

Conversely, if the man was being executed for some of the more trivial (to us) crimes, then I am sure that the outlook would have been different (I cant remenber these crimes offhand, but drunkeness seems to have been one - Yes, I know it could lead to more serious things.)

Was anyone executed for drunkeness? Or any other "trivial" crime?

I'm partly playing Devil's Advocate here, but there are far too many straw men and leading statements in this thread.

[MartH]

I have mentioned in another thread that a Finnish Jaeger was executed whilst in Germany, and there was even a play about it which I saw in the early 1980's. I therefore suspect that it is very well written up, I'm off to Ypres next week so will do some digging when I return. It was in my grandfarther's company, we did even discuss it, he said that it was very upsetting because the man was a volunteer and had risked life and limb to get to Germany, but it was absolutely necessary, the man was a putting the whole German Finnish relationship at risk. He also made clear the best marksmen where used, and that a pistol was used to make sure, which is all in the play. He also had a view that if they had not shot the man, the germans would have used them as cannon fodder. He also was quiet clear that being on the eastern front hardened you a lot, as did the western front.

Whats weird is that my English grandfather was an undercover MP, and personally captured one on the retreat who was executed, so the family tale goes, but I never knew him.

[PBI]

I am still unsure about the use of Blank Cartridges in an execution,is there any hard evidence to support this claim.I would have thought that it would been far better to issue live rounds to all Members of the firing party to ensure more certainty of instantaneous death.Paul Reed commented on the spate of executions that proved non fatal to the condemned man,who had to be given the Coup de Grace by the attending Officer...i wonder if a large issue of SRD Rum or spirits to the firing party prior to the execution would have played a contributing factor in the demise of the accuracy of the firing party?.The execution scenes from The Monocled Mutineer,and "For King and Country" springs to mind.Now donning Tin Hat and retreating to Dug Out to await incoming strafe.

[Steven Broomfield]

SAD - A debate that's always good for a fight!!

Which is why it used to be banned ... but I think we're doing OK here.

So far

[1st_east_yorks]

Was anyone executed for drunkeness? Or any other "trivial" crime?

I'm partly playing Devil's Advocate here, but there are far too many straw men and leading statements in this thread.

You, devil, you........

As I said, this is an emotive subject.

I used the word "trivial" accompanied by (to us), because what is deemed trivial by some is not for others.

Some of the death sentences that I was referring to were ;

(from Irish SAD information);

Insubordibnation - 2

Striking/violence - 6

Plunder - 3

Disobiedience - 3.

These seems trivial when compared to murder, rape, desertion, etc. and although I appreciate that these could lead to more serious issues, the death penalty seems rather harsh. (These men may have had previous convictions....I do not know.)

So that was my point.

By the way, what is a "straw man"??

Sean.

[Heid the Ba]

Thanks for the info Sean, I didn't know there were executions for those crimes.

A straw man is where you misrepresent an opponent's position to make it easier to argue against or to draw the argument into irrelevent areas.

[auchonvillerssomme]

As a matter of interest who were the men executed as mentioned:

Insubordibnation - 2

Striking/violence - 6

Plunder - 3

Disobiedience - 3.

Mick

[Ron Clifton]

Hello all

May I add a few points to the discussion, and perhaps to clear up some misunderstandings?

I have read extensively on the subject and whilst I cannot quote chapter and verse offhand, I believe the following to be true.

You certainly could not be shot simply for drunkenness.

Many soldiers who were shot had previously beenm convicted for desertion, and in some cases were given a death sentence which was commuted, but not, I think, a large proportion.

Several men were court-martialled on a number of separate charges, but the standard sources only mention one such. For instance, 2/Lt P was shot for murder, but seems to have been a deserter as well. Similarly, some of the men shot for [leaving his CO to go in search of] plunder may also have been guilty of violence against local inhabitants in the process.

I have read a report about the selection of one firing squad, by the NCO in charge. In that specific case he chose men with a fairly bad disciplinary record. Many of them begged and pleaded to be let off, but he does not say whether anyone was let off.

I believe that the normal practice was for the firing squad to be from the executed man's own unit, and sometimes in front of the rest of the unit. This reinforces the dterrent effect on the man's former comrades. This effect would be less if the man were taken away and shot by the military police - some might even have doubted whether he had been executed at all, and not simply moved to another unit.

Some offences may seem trivial but if a sentry is asleep at his post he puts the whole unit in danger of being taken by surprise by an enemy attack. If several of his comrades were killed in this way, but the sleeper survived, a death sentence for him would not be inappropriate.

Ron

[1st_east_yorks]

As a matter of interest who were the men executed as mentioned:

Insubordibnation - 2

Striking/violence - 6

Plunder - 3

Disobiedience - 3.

Mick

Hello Mick,

I do not have these names, but the information is recorded here

http://www.shotatdawncampaignirl.org/Downey.htm

Maybe some digging on this site will give you the names.

The numbers are shown at the bottom of the page.

As an addendum to "trivial" offences, take a look at this (from the same website);

http://www.shotatdawncampaignirl.org/famil...r_soldier_s.htm

[1st_east_yorks]

A straw man is where you misrepresent an opponent's position to make it easier to argue against or to draw the argument into irrelevent areas.

well that explains the current Cabinet and PM then.

Is that where Jack Straw comes from then?

[Beau Geste]

Absolutly no evidence he was telling porkies and I doubt that there is any evidence, but I am a natural cynic.

As regards picking men for nasty or dangerous tasks, I would choose the best and most reliable for the job any decent NCO has a core group he or she can trust completely, and if not to follow unquestioning, to at least follow.

Mick

Thanks Mick, Me too but we are not talking about "dangerous jobs" here are we? All I'm suggesting is that assembling a firing squad to kill a comrade who probably, through no fault of his own, has failed in some way would probably be very difficult indeed. That's why I can relate to Russ's suggestion that those selected might well have been the unit's "nasties" or better still, Paul Reid's point that the responsibility was handed over to the MPs or at least people who hadn't come into day to day contact with the poor blighter.

Harry

[centurion]

Many soldiers who were shot had previously beenm convicted for desertion, and in some cases were given a death sentence which was commuted, but not, I think, a large proportion.

Not commuted - suspended. Commuted meant a lesser punishment was substituted. The man would then have had to commit and be found guilty another capital offence to be shot. Suspended meant just that - the sentence was left hanging over the soldier and could be reactivated by a lesser (but usually serious) offence. The suspended sentence was introduced at Haig's insistence to reduce the number of soldiers shot (in which it largely succeeded) but there were some who failed to learn the lesson.

[1st_east_yorks]

Hello all

May I add a few points to the discussion, and perhaps to clear up some misunderstandings?

Thanks Ron.

Would the execution party have known the reason for the execution?

[truthergw]

As regards French executions, we are into very contentious territory here. There is simply no complete record of all the men who were shot out of hand, particularly at the very start of the war. It was the French custom, after a formal execution, for a march past of a large number of soldiers from the executed man's unit after the execution. There is at least one photograph of this. The description in Le Feu of the men inspecting the site of an execution suggests that it was not a universal occurrence. As far as the list of charges goes, I suspect that is a partial list. A man could face a capital charge for striking a superior officer and that would almost certainly be accompanied by a charge of insubordination. Disobedience would depend on the order which was disobeyed.

[Ron Clifton]

Not commuted - suspended. Commuted meant a lesser punishment was substituted.

Yes centurion, I did mean commuted i.e. reduced. Over 3000 men were sentenced to death but only 346 were shot. The rest had their sentences reduced. If they werre found guilty of a second capital offence it would not mean they would be shot for the first offence although obviously it would be taken into account in the sentence for the second offence. If the second offence was not capital, they could not legally be sentenced to death for it.

I think suspended sentences applied to imprisonment, the benefit being that such a soldier could be retained in the ranks and given a chance to redeem himself, instead of languishing in prison. You may be right about Haig's comments but these would apply equally well to suspended sentences of imprisonment.

1st East Yorks -

The men in the squad would probably know about the man's offence. IIRC both the offence and sentence were either read out on parade or published in unit orders. In any case battalion gossip would probably have made it known.

The original Jack Straw was a highwayman in Hampstead. There is still a pub there called Jack Straw's Castle. That his namesake should have become Minister for Justice is, I think, an irony!

Ron

[Heid the Ba]

(from Irish SAD information);

Insubordibnation - 2

Striking/violence - 6

Plunder - 3

Disobiedience - 3.

These seems trivial when compared to murder, rape, desertion, etc. and although I appreciate that these could lead to more serious issues, the death penalty seems rather harsh. (These men may have had previous convictions....I do not know.)

Sean, from the website you linked to, soldiers were sentenced to death for these crimes but were not executed, the sentences were commuted.

The only soldiers listed who were executed commited murder (1), deserted (3) and Downey who repeatedly disobeyed orders.

Were sentences not originally commuted (ie reduced) and later under Haig suspended so that any further offence could trigger the original death penalty?

[Ron Clifton]

Heid

I have extracted the following from Puti and Sykes' Shot at Dawn:

7560 Pte A Frafra Casting Arms Gold Coast Regt

19/647 L/Sgt J W Stones 25 Casting Arms 19/DLI

10912 Pte R Burton 24 Sleeping on Post 6/S Lancs

10555 Pte T Downing 22 Sleeping on Post 6/S Lancs

1/9804 Pte T Davis 21 Quitting Post 1/RMF

19/158 L/Cpl P Goggins 21 Quitting Post 19/DLI

23972 Cpl J Wilton 37 Quitting Post 15/Sher For

19/420 L/Cpl J McDonald 28 Quitting Post 19/DLI

10459 Cpl G H Povey 23 Quitting Post 1/Ches

307350 Pte T Hopkins 26 Quitting Post 1/8/LF

2676 Pte A G Earp Quitting Post+ 1/5/R Warks

3972 Pte S Sabongidda Striking SO 3/Nigerian

64987 Dvr J Mullany Striking SO 72 Bty 38 Bde RFA

67440 Dvr T G Hamilton 22 Striking SO 72 Bty 38 Bde RFA

7711 Pte J Fox Striking SO 2/HLI

4881 Pte H A Clarke Striking SO 2/B W Indies

6/227 Pte P J Downey 20 Disobedience 6/Leinster

9/28719 Pte J Cuthbert 20 Disobedience 9/Ches

322497 Rfn F W Slade 24 Disobedience 2/6/London

9610 Sgt J Robins Disobedience+ 5/Wilts

L/36251 Dvr J W Hasemore 23 Disobedience+ 180 Bde RFA

These are all the cases other than for desertion, cowardice, mutiny or murder. A plus symbol indicates conviction for other offences too, and the figure after the surname is the age.

Ron

[truthergw]

Men would definitely be aware that a man had been shot. It would be as widely publicised as possible. His offence and the fact that the sentence had been carried out wasread out on parades and put up in Orders. In the British army, executions were the result of a properly conducted process of law. They were not carried out in a hole in the corner manner but as laid down in regulations. No man ever was executed for something he hadn't done or in ignorance of the penalty for his actions.

[Heid the Ba]

Thanks Ron

Casting away arms and quiting post are certainly on the road to desertion, and arguably if you are sleeping at your posts you might as well not be there.

I'd guess the two from 72 Battery RFA, was a single incident. Or a battery with a serious discipline problem.

[PhilB]

Were the 18 men executed by the Germans guilty of some particularly heinous crime/s? (Post #50)

[centurion]

Yes centurion, I did mean commuted i.e. reduced. Over 3000 men were sentenced to death but only 346 were shot. The rest had their sentences reduced. If they werre found guilty of a second capital offence it would not mean they would be shot for the first offence although obviously it would be taken into account in the sentence for the second offence. If the second offence was not capital, they could not legally be sentenced to death for it.

I think suspended sentences applied to imprisonment, the benefit being that such a soldier could be retained in the ranks and given a chance to redeem himself, instead of languishing in prison. You may be right about Haig's comments but these would apply equally well to suspended sentences of imprisonment.

Suspended sentences most definitely applied to capiltal offences. Haig himself specifically refers to this in his final (winding up) despatch of the war as he was quite proud of the number of men who had not been shot as a result

[Steven Broomfield]

Suspended sentences most definitely applied to capiltal offences.

Hanging? That a suspended sentence. (I think I have to thank ex-Gunner Milligan for that one)

[Robert Dale]

Do we know how reliable the figure of 18 German military executions is?

Robert

[truthergw]

The German military were generally punctilious about record keeping. Unless some evidence is forthcoming to suggest a cover-up, I would say that the figure would be accurate. Again, I have to emphasise, this is not something that the military of the time would feel they needed to keep a secret. The only exception to that was the mutinies in the French army in 1917 which, because of its extent, was kept remarkably secret at the time. There were good military reasons for not wishing the enemy to know of the state of the army.