Segregation of Soldiers

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

To what extent were soldiers segregated during the war?

I ask this question as I have a photograph (which I have successfully failed to add to this thread!!) of a mixed group of British and West Indian soldiers in hospital blue uniform. I have previously read that efforts were made to segregate soldiers albeit members of the Foreign Labour Corps from British soldiers.

In addition why was this done when Indian soldiers were allowed to mix with British soldiers?

Ian

[Kate Wills]

Ian, I have just been looking at a photo of a platoon the 2/4 Yorks & Lancs containing a black soldier, and let's not forget 2/Lt Walter Tull, the professional footballer with Northampton Town and Spurs. I believe he was the first black officer.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Ian

I do not know about segregation but like Kate, I have a copy of a photo of three Black soldiers who were in the K.S.L.I., they may have served with the 6th Battalion as the photo was in a collection belonging to a man who served in that Battalion.

Annette

[Tom Morgan]

The father of the boxer Randolph Turpin was the first black soldier in (I think) the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. He was gassed during the war and I'm pretty sure he served alongside white comrades as an infantryman.

[AndrewThornton]

I have the British War Medal to Lance-Corporal George William Taylor, who served with the 7th South Staffords and was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for acts of gallantry while serving as a stretcher-bearer during the Battle of Messines on 7th/8th June. He came from a village called Norton Canes, which is just outside Cannock in Staffordshire and worked as a miner at the Conduit Colliery in the village.

When I began to do research into soldiers from Norton who served in the Great War I came across a photo of Taylor in a local newspaper and was very surprised to see that he was black. I asked some of the older residents of the village if the knew of him and they did confirm this and that his family was resident in Norton for a number of years before the Great War. When I found his medal by chance a few years later in Shrewsbury I couldn't believe my luck!

Having seen more photos of soldiers of Afro-Carribean decent serving with British Army units it seems that black soldiers were not as unusual as first imagined. I have seen several photos of black soldiers serving in the Welsh Regiment in particular, and there is a group picture of some men of the 1/1st Monmouths in Hughes and Dixon's book on the battalion which feature a black soldier as well.

[Hedley Malloch]

Paul Reed wrote an article for 'Stand To' in 1997 on the experiences of some black soldiers in the British regiments during WW1. It contained the information that Britain's most decorated black soldier appears to have been a Geordie. John Sheen, the historian of the Tyneside Irish has said that one of its batallions had 30 soldiers recruited from the Arab community in South Shields. Because of their appearance and provenance they were known as 'smoked geordies', kipper production being a major activity at South Shields at that time. It would be interesting to know what happened to them.

Taking these two sources with the others posted here, then there does seem to be some evidence that black soldiers recruited in Britain were recruited direct into the regular regiments. We don't know the numbers. We don' t know much of their experiences, either individually or collectively, but it is safe to assume that they were much better than those of the exclusively black regiments raised in the British West Indies, China, India and South Africa.

The BWI regiment in particular was shamefully and shabbily treated and has recently been well documented in the press, tv programmes and on the SAD web-sites. The British Army didn't deserve these soldiers and their treatment is a major indictment against Haig and Co.

Interestng to see how these discriminatory practices still live on - see the recent Ghurkas pension cases.

[paul guthrie]

For a terrific read on blacks in the WW1 US Army, The Unknown Soldiers by Henri and Barbusse. It was appalling. I will give one example, Charles M Young of Lexington, Kentucky. There is a park named after him here in Lexington, in a black neighborhood of course.

He was the 3d black to graduate from USMA, the only one on active duty. He was 6th on the list of those to be appointed Colonel in April, 1917 when US entered war. A young officer from Mississippi complained to his senator about having to serve under a ******. The matter reached the top of the War Department and I think Wilson, senator told nothing to worry about, he was called in for a non-routine physical, told he had high blood pressure, discharged. His own doctor told them BP was not high for a man his age and to prove his fitness, he rode a horse from Ohio where he was living to Washington but the discharge stuck.

ALmost all of these men were used as laborers, we did have one division, 92d trained for combat, did badly in Meuse Argonne battle but so did all others w/o experience and the experienced ones did not do well either.

The 93d fought with the French and did quite well including MOH winner Freddie Sowers who got his award in the 90's, two sisters were alive. The British - former UN Ambassador Andrew Young said they invented racism- refused these men while desparate for troops.

I have read Paul's fine article.

[Paul Reed]

I did my MA thesis on the subject of Black Soldiers in the British Army; the article referred to by Hedley was one of the chapters from it. One day I am going to publish it on the web, as there is so little information on this subject and it needs to be in the public domain.

There were 20,000 Black men (age 18+) living in Liverpool alone by 1919; many of these were conscripted from 1916 onwards, although stictly speaking 'men of colour' were not eligible to join the British Army. Over the years I have found many photos of Black soldiers in British units; and not light skinned ones either. I suspect the total number could be several thousand - quite a contribution, and largely unknown even in the Black community.

As for the first Black officer; the Canadian Black Pioneer battalion had at least one Black officer, and that was before 1916.

An interesting, and often overlooked subject; I welcome details of ANY Black soldiers in British units from those who have done research into their own units and have found them.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. The paper by Paul sounds very interesting and I look forward to reading it in due course, if and when it is published.

On the odd occasion when I have given a presentation on WW1 to school children, in the multicultural area where Iwork, the question relating to ethnic minorities is always raised. Having something positive to say will maybe spark their interest in the future.

Ian

[jhill]

As Paul Reed points out, there was a black pioneer battalion formed in Canada. One of the nineteen officers was black (the chaplain). There is a brief page at the National Defence site at: http://www.dnd.ca/site/fourth_dimension/20.../jul04_fd_e.htm

At that time the Canadian Chief of the Defence Staff, Major General W. Gwatkin, was a British officer seconded from the "other side" and his position probably represented the basic army position. He wrote a memo (available on the net somewhere) basically saying that black men were not suitable soldier material. On the other hand, it seems individual colonels raising battalions had much discretion as to who they accepted and rejected. Some enrolled black men; others rejected them. There was some controversy but not much.

This discretion was not limited to isues of colour. As an example, a history of the 49th Battalion, CEF , notes that several dozens of "sicilians" were turned away on the grounds that Italy was a neutral country. Americans and Norwegians didn't have any trouble though.

[paul guthrie]

James can you determine if John Benjamin French 3084572 was a member of this battalion? His records show he was a member of Canadian Forestry Corps who attested in Montreal May 1918. He was in the UK mid July so did not get much training. He did serve in France and was in a NZ Stationary Hospital for mumps, another mention of perotitis , looks like hosp at Wisques.

He died May 20, 1920 and is buried in a black cemetery here in Lexington, Kentucky. CWGC has him listed there. I have been dilatory about getting there and it is practically destroyed by an ice storm, has no funds for repair. I do not know if he has a CWGC stone. I do not understand how he is listed as a war death, was quite healthy at discharge.

He had been a shoe shiner and jockey, need to learn more about him.

[Paul Reed]

Paul - I have a history of this unit and will see if there is any mention of him.

[jhill]

Paul, I am afraid you known as much as I do. You have obviously seen his attestation papers (what a great on line resource we have in that data base!). Unfortunately, we would need to go through the nominal roles for the various units involved (there may have been several).

I presume I am not the only one who has noticed how little service information about individuals is included in the man's service file. All the good stuff must be in the regimental files which are hard to get. What we need is a massive digitization project, followed by a network of volonteer transcription and indexing initiatives.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Paul (Reed)

I can not put names to the men in the K.S.L.I. photo but would you like a copy of the photo, I also have one of the first recruits for the 6th K.S.L.I. at Copthorne Barracks in August 1914 and out of a handful of men who are wearing uniforms (I think these men in uniform are Regulars or Special Reserve) one is a black guy. I have seen a photo in Stand To of a black pilot and he looks just like the K.S.L.I. chap, I was going to try and find out if it was the same chap but never got around to do it. Any way Paul if you do want photocopies of these two photos just let me know (by the way the originals belong to the Shropshires museum).

I hope you do publish your work on the web, the subject does need to be in the public domain.

Regards

Annette

[Andrew P]

In the AIF, aboriginal soldiers served alongside those of anglo-saxon background with a few winning decorations along the way.

Garth O'Connell who works at the Australian War Memorial was researching aboriginal members of the AIF in WW1 & WW2.

In my research on soldiers from Fremantle in WW1, I recently discovered a Indian of the Mohammaden or Islamic faith who served in the 28th Battalion AIF.

Regards

Andrew

[CROONAERT]

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned Walter Tull,one of Britain's first black footballers.He played for Tottenham Hotspur and Northampton Town and enlisted in the Middlesex Regiment in 1914.In 1916 he was sent for officer training and was commissioned. 2nd Lt. Tull was mentioned in despatches in Italy.He returned to France in 1918 and was killed on the 25th March at the age of 29 while trying to rally his troops for an attack on the German lines.He is commemorated on the Arras Memorial. He was thought of so highly that his comrades risked their own lives on several occasions to try (unsuccessfully) to recover his body.

I have a photograph of Walter Tull in the uniform of a second Lieutenant if anyone is interested.

Incidentally,for those curious,he was in the 5th Middlesex (attached to the 23rd battalion when he died.Previously,he had served in the 17th Bn.)

Dave.

[Paul Reed]

Dave - Kate Wills mentions him above.

Tull was relatively light skinned, and I think was considered an acceptable 'man of colour' because of his background - which is how he got his commission. Under the letter of the law of the Army Act, men of colour could not receive commissions.

[CROONAERT]

Dave - Kate Wills mentions him above.

So she does! (ooops! )