POW Royal Engineers

[lolponty@aol.com]

I wonder if anyone can help me I am trying to find out information about my step-mother's father who was a sapper in the Royal Engineers, my step-mother who is 84 would love to know more. He apparently was twice taken prisoner but escaped and survived the war. He would never talk about his experiences. All that is known is he is thought to have lied about his age to join-up, he would have been 17 in 1914 and that he was taken prisoner twice. His Medal Index Card shows that he was awarded the Victory Medal and British Medal, alongside the entry it says RE/101 B85. Excusing my ignorance, but does this indicate that he was in the 101st division, 85th Batallion? My father has said he will pay the exorbitant fee being charged by the Red Cross and I will do the work on his behalf but would like to know if there is any way I can save him paying out.

Details: Oliver Garfield Dummer, his middle name was not used on the MIC, born 1897, Pontypridd, Glamorgan, South Wales, Father Edward Dummer, mother Florence Irene Dummer.

[Doug Johnson]

Irene,

I have checked FO383 and WO161 but there is no reference to him (the most likely series at the National Archives). There is also no reference on the Behind the Wire site. It would be strange for an escaping PoW not to have been interviewed. However if he was taken prisoner only briefly before making his way back through the lines then there would be no interview. I am not certain from your posting as to whether he escaped twice or whether he remained a PoW after capture the second time. If he managed to escape the second time as well as the first, in similar circumstances, then even the ICRC will not have any records. For him to have been reported as a PoW to the Red Cross he would have to have been registered at a PoW camp in Germany (even if he never went to Germany). Some of those working as PoWs behind the German lines spent months there before being registered and indeed some did escape back through the lines.

I will have a quick check in the official reports as some of those who so escaped are named.

The reference on his MIC sounds like a medal roll reference which should be consulted.

To have lied about his age he would presumably have signed up in 1914. If he did it took a long time for him to be sent to the front as he did not receive either of the two stars. The MIC should have the date of entering France on it.

Doug

[lolponty@aol.com]

Irene,

I have checked FO383 and WO161 but there is no reference to him (the most likely series at the National Archives). There is also no reference on the Behind the Wire site. It would be strange for an escaping PoW not to have been interviewed. However if he was taken prisoner only briefly before making his way back through the lines then there would be no interview. I am not certain from your posting as to whether he escaped twice or whether he remained a PoW after capture the second time. If he managed to escape the second time as well as the first, in similar circumstances, then even the ICRC will not have any records. For him to have been reported as a PoW to the Red Cross he would have to have been registered at a PoW camp in Germany (even if he never went to Germany). Some of those working as PoWs behind the German lines spent months there before being registered and indeed some did escape back through the lines.

I will have a quick check in the official reports as some of those who so escaped are named.

The reference on his MIC sounds like a medal roll reference which should be consulted.

To have lied about his age he would presumably have signed up in 1914. If he did it took a long time for him to be sent to the front as he did not receive either of the two stars. The MIC should have the date of entering France on it.

Doug

[lolponty@aol.com]

Hi Doug, many thanks for your prompt reply, I did email back but after I'd finished and was just about to send I lost connection and didn, want to type it all again. Spent hours yesterday and following more information again today. I had already checked FO383, WO161 & Behind Barbed Wire with no result. Checking with my step-mother, as far as she knows, he was captured & escaped twice. He was put to work in a coalmine on one of his two periods of captivity but that is all that's known. My father has now found some paperwork which solves some of the mystery.

He was attested 21-2-1916, called-up 27-4-1916 and served overseas on active service, no specific places mentioned. This would explain why he did not receive The Star, also it was incorrect that he lied about his age. Certificate of Demob states he was in unit Z 21, 3rd Reserve Battallion, Royal Engineers. He was transferred to Army Reserve 21-9-1919, A1 medical, in case of emergency to rejoin at Deganwy, North Wales. This was signed by the Officer in Charge, Chatham. A letter was sent by his mother 14-6-1918 making enquiries as there had been no contact for quite some time. Reply sent 18-6-1918 stating that he was missing but there had been no record that he was POW but it was quite likely.

Understand now that the reference no RE/101 B85 refer to roll index, page 18197 which I'd previously omitted. I will attempt to attach his medal card to this email but not very clever at this type of thing. There is nothing else written on it but on further research this appears to be common with Royal Engineers.

Is there anyway we can progress on this at all, I accept what you said about the unlikelihood of The Red Cross having information. I have tried to make sense of latest information but got a bit lost with all the numbers. Am I correct in thinking that he would have been attached to the 21st Division, was this a Welsh Corps and as he was working in the Welsh coalmines before call-up is it anything to do with the 62nd Tunnelling Division? Ignorance isn't always bliss!!

Many Thanks for any help, Lorraine (not Irene)

PS Tried to attach document but failed only know how to attach to normal email, sorry, but you have all the information that's on it.

[Doug Johnson]

Hi Lorraine,

Apologies for the error, one day I may learn to read properly.

In my mind there is still a bit of uncertainty about exactly what happened to him. Escapers were almost certain to have been interviewed, however, we use the term escaper to indicate someone who made a home run. It is possible for him to have been captured, escaped and been recaptured without him having made it back. Many prisoners made multiple escape "attempts" in which they got clean away from the camp they were in only to be recaptured before they managed to reach a neutral country.

In terms of the new details and dates it looks like he was captured during the German spring offensive of 1918 or shorly after. His mother's enquiry dated 14th June states he had not been heard of for some time. (this enquiry may be recorded in the Red Cross Enquiry lists). This would indicate that he was held working behind the German lines, a common occurance. I would then guess he was transferred to Germany, possibly to somewhere like Münster or to Friedrichsfeld (Westerholt coal mine). In that case the Red Cross may have a record. (if he was working in a mine it is unlikely for him not to have been transferred to Germany)

Attaching things to posts is not really difficult, the key is in reducing the size to below the limit.

Doug