POW ; R.FUSILIERS

[sadsac]

Hello ALL, looking for info/help for Lady who is seeking info re her G.Uncle.

I met her yesterday while `on duty' at Poppy `Parade collection'. Here are details given ;

BRION Reginald F No. 69994 Royal Fusiliers 11th Div., City of London. Known to have been at Arras battle.

Thought to have had a service number prevoius to the one given.

POW in SWIDERNITZ POW Camp. Died of Flu/Pneumonia 07.07.1918. Buried in South Western Cemetery, Berlin.

Information is sort regarding his service record / POW Records - where to find etc.

Any info would get her started. The Lady has already done what she can, but does not have info as to go further.

Whilst attending the Poppy collections I have undertaken such before & have been of help to people.

Anyone that contibutes to the Poppy Fund deserves some little help that I am able to give.

ALL information gratefully received.

Sadsac

[Doug Johnson]

Swidernitz is not on my list of camps nor on Cecile's site. Is it possible that the camp is Schweidnitz? If so, this was a camp for officers. Any non-officers there would have been used as orderlies for the officers at a rate of one orderly for about ten officers. Schweidnitz is the camp that J L Hardy escaped from.

Mrs P-H

A prettily situated town (pop. 31,300) on the Weistritz. It was used as a place of internment in 1870. The building in which the officers are interned was once a lazaret and consists of the usual brick barracks. A church is in the garden of about an acre. Half a mile from station and two hours by train from Breslau. 6th Army corps.

Doug

[sadsac]

Hello Doug, and thanks for your reply. You are correct it WAS SWEIDNITZ, my informant got the spelling wrong & I copied !

Are any further details of camp & internees available ??

Are there any details re death certificates issued ??

Why Mrs P-H ?? Is that significant ??

Sadsac

[Doug Johnson]

Sadsac,

There still seems to be a difference in the spelling but I assume it is the same camp (Schweidnitz - Sweidnitz) in which case he was almost certainly acting as an orderly, a common occupation for PoWs.

Mrs P-H is Mrs Pope-Hennesey (oft quoted in this part of the forum) who wrote the definitive guide to PoW camps in Germany and that is where the quote came from. I will have a look at Hardy's book to see what he says and also in Doegen's book which will no doubt tell us how many of each nationality were there in 1918. I do not have any inspection reports for the camp as it appears that American inspectors never visited it, however there is a Dutch report on the camp in FO383/399 at TNA. Interestingly it is a report on Schweidnitz I and II, however both seem to be officer camps. The treatment at the camps seems to be poor as there are several references in FO383 to the poor conditions there including a response from the German authorities.

Col Rathbone wrote an account on the conditions there and this is also in FO383. He also has a report in WO161 which is presumably the same report. It can be downloaded here for a smallish fee.

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Doegen says there were 599 British officers and 120 British men there in October 1918. There were than no other nationalities present. The camp was commanded by Hpt Kopisch. There is no reference to two camps but that means nothing. FO383 mention several escape attempts.

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Hardy describes it as follows;

The camp had once been a warehouse, and did not appear by any means an uncomfortable place. It was simply a large courtyard containing a number of buildings and huts, and surrounded by a ten foot brick wall topped with broken glass. This wall formed the outer defence of the camp, and prisoners were prevented from approaching it by means of a wire fence erected at varying distances from it; but the neutral zone was at no point less than five yards deep

Note that there is more about the camp but Hardy was generally concerned with the security in terms of escaping. the description would agree with Mrs P-H's description.

He also states that the camp had then been open for about 5 months (at that time is was early in 1918 so it probably opened in about August 1917) and a civilian photographer came to the camp every week. Hardy escaped with the help of a British orderly. NB if the camp was only opened in August 1917 it would explain why the Americans never visited it.

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

This explains about PoW death certificates at TNA.

Doug

[Stebie9173]

I haven't much time to look at the possibilities, but it seems that Reginald Brion was part of a group of men transferred from 51st Graduated Battalion of the Royal Sussex Regiment (some having served with 99th TRB (TR/10/xxxxx numbers) and the 253rd Infantry Battalion - all three being the same battalion with different names) on 14-2-1918 to go to France that day. From 40th Infantry Base Depot (a.k.a "J" Infantry Base Depot), they were posted to the 11th Royal Fusiliers on 16th February 1918.

Bearing in mind the timeframe between his embarkation and his death, Reg is likely to have been captured at either Jussy (21st-23rd March 1918, or on the retreat in the following days), at Hangard Wood on 4th-5th April 1918 or at Cachy/Gentelles/Villers Bretonneux on the 24th-25th April 1918. Out of the three options, the first at Jussy in March 1918 is by far the most likely as the 11th Royal Fusiliers were all but cut off by the Germans over those couple of days (the battalion was down to 25 men and 2 officers by the evening of the 23-3-1918, from presumably a strength of 500+ at the start of the battle).

This seems incompatible with him being at Arras, however.

I have to go out, but I will try and confirm the above details, and add a bit more later this evening.

Steve.

[sadsac]

DOUG, yes, again it must be Sweidnitz as you say. Many thanks for all the info you have given. I am sure `my Lady' will be delighted, as am I - I flatter myself I have some little knowledge in Naval matters, but not much in Soldiers. I will look into the files you have given me when I next get down to PRO/NA. Not too sure when that will be - I hope later this year.

If you can recall other lines of info / docs that may bring up `something' would be most appreciative.

STEBIE, thank you for your `other' information, most informative. Look forward to anything further info that you may be able to supply.

Sadsac

[Doug Johnson]

Sadsac,

Schweidnitz is more likely to be his second allocated camp rather than his first and only camp. I am also unsure of how the system worked when he was sent to an officers' head camp i.e. did this become his registered camp or did the camp he was allocated from remain as his head camp? The former seems more likely as orderlies are listed along with the officers at Schweidnitz. Since Schweidnitz is in the VIth Army Corps area it is likely he was registered at either Lamsdorf or Neuhammer before his stay at Schweidnitz. Both of these camps being the only head camps in this corps area and both had an appreciable number of Brits registered to them. I am a little unsure of where Neuhammer was located as Mrs P-H places it below Neisse and Doegen places it much further north towards Sagan. Lamsdorf however appears to be closest to Schweidnitz.

If Steve's information is correct then there was little time between his death and capture, a matter of four months at max. This would suggest he was one of the lucky ones to have been sent straight to Germany after capture rather then held behind the lines. Those held behind the lines were usually there for many months until they became too ill to work.

The ICRC could be contacted for details but the cost (£120) is putting many off doing so. They would probably confirm Schweidnitz and may be able to say which of the mens camps he was registered at beforehand (registration does not mean that he was present in that camp at any time).

Doug

[sadsac]

DOUG, thanks for further info - great stuff !

Apparently JUSSY is a `factory' near to ARRAS, so maybe that is the reseaon why `my lady' said that he was catured at Arras. Is JUSSY?Arras close by each other do you know ??

If V1 Army controlled the area, as you say, would that concern have any details/docs regarding the camp ?? I ask because I anticipate the question - it is what I would ask !!

Actually I attended a meeting at my local Memorial today & a Lady from the Local Council asked a question similar to this. Oh I did seem terribly knowlagable haviing your info to hand because her GGFather was in the same situation - so thanks from TWO Ladies to you.

Sadsac

[Stebie9173]

This particular Jussy is south of St Quentin west of the D1 near Mennessis and Remigny, and due east of Roye.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The group of men I mentioned above seems to comprise the of the men below. Note that the "A"s and "Bs" are there but then the group numbering seems to have fizzled out. The clerks may have been using a small batch to fill in gaps in the numbering they had already used:

End of previous group:

G/69985 Thomson, Frank (East Surrey Regiment 34891, Royal Fusiliers GS/69985)

G/69986 -

New Group:

G/69987 Adams, James

G/69988 Appleby, Leonard

G/69989 Ager, William W

G/69990 Adeoni, Ernest

G/69991 Blyth, Robert (from whose record the above details are extracted) - 99th Training Reserve Battalion, 253rd Infantry Battalion, 51st Graduated Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment and 11th Royal Fusiliers.

G/69992 Barth, Sidney Herbert (killed in action, 11th Royal Fusiliers, 30-8-1918 - Formerly 41972, 99th T.R. Battn. per SDGW)

G/69993 Bland, Harold E J

G/69994 Brion, Reginald F (died, 11th Royal Fusiliers, 7-7-1918 - Formerly 41713, 99Th T.R. Battn. per SDGW.

G/69995 Baston, Edward

G/69996 Birch, Walter George (Died, 11th Royal Fusiliers, 21-6-1918 - Formerly TR/10/41711, 99th T.R. Battn. per SDGW)

G/69997 Barnett, Thomas

G/69998 Birtley, Thomas S

G/69999 Berry, William J

G/70000 Beston James J

G/70001 Bradley, Richard T

G/70002 ?

G/70003 ?

G/70004 Potter, Harry

Of the four with some details shown,they are all linked to the 99th Training Reserve Battalion and to the Royal Fusiliers, with the known dates all being 1918.

Of course, don't forget that with the Royal Fusiliers medal rolls they will state the dates served overseas with the particular battalions, and thus guesswork could be removed!!

Note that Walter George Birch is buried in Berlin and very probably died as a POW as did Reginald Brion.

Steve.

[sadsac]

DOUG, thanks for further info. You say that there is a `list' of which orderly served which officer - is this list obtainable ?? Suspect that is a little deep, but `must do' best for my Lady.

`Lucky to have been sent to Germany' - I wonder if he thought so at the time. Do you know if there was a Flu epidemic at the camp at that time ?? Seems rather likely as cause of death is given as Pneumonia.

STEVE, Wow much info there and many thanks for it. As to JUSSY - I have been told that it was a FACTORY area - is this so or was it an actual town/village ?? Is the info you have supplid in some document at NA ?? Do you have the NA numbers - presumably WO / FO files ??

Regards & thanks again to both

Sadsac

[Doug Johnson]

Sadsac,

Sorry for confusion, Doegen lists numbers of prisoners registered at each camp. For officer camps these will correspond to the numbers actually in the camp but for OR camps they could, and usually are, scattered amongst numerous sub camps and work places. Since Doegen lists the number (no names) of ORs at the officers' camp I assume that their registration has been transferred there and not retained at an ORs camp.

He would almost certainly have known that certain prisoners were being held behind the lines and badly treated so it is likely he knew that being sent to Germany was a good thing. The flu epidemic hit the camps as much as anywhere else and the death rate rose. Doegen lists the numbers and cause of death amongst all nationalites (not by camp). I will try to translate the causes later.

Doug

[Stebie9173]

Jussy is a small town on the St Quentin Canal, and as far as I know is a farming area, not a factory area.

Steve.

[sadsac]

DOUG / STEVE, MANY THANKS FOR YOUR REPLIES WITH INFO.

Much appreciated.

Sadsac