danlyon Posted 30 October , 2009 Share Posted 30 October , 2009 Couldn't resist the Topic Title. Sorry. At least it wasn't Simbas. I am struggling to pin down two Lyon officers who were apparently involved. 1. James Harper Lyon is said by his University website to have been a Captain in "Native Barotse Regiment", died of wounds at Kasama on 10 December 1916. Nothing on CWGC nor MIC, and I can't find anything about a regiment with that precise name : it may or may not be the Rhodesa Native Regiment which left Salisbury for active service in East Africa in July 1916. Can anyone confirm any part of this, and/or add details of the action just before 10 December ? 2. William Roy Lyon was a Sierra Leone administrator in peacetime, but held a commission in the 6th London Regiment TF. Returned to England from Sierra Leone in January 1917, and immediately promoted to Major. However, his MIC then says “HQ & attached Nigeria. Theatre of War G E Africa. Entered 1917." Does that mean Nigeria Regiment ? Did that regiment move from West Africa to East Africa in 1917 ? If so, does anyone have a short note of its part in the proceedings ? I'm not sure if he would then have qualified for the AGS.... He served again in WW2, so there is little chance of getting sight of his papers. I am happy to do the legwork myself, but I would be very grateful for some pointers as to where to direct said legs. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 30 October , 2009 Share Posted 30 October , 2009 theres a book on gutenburg site about e africa http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/World_War_I_...ow_Countries.29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 30 October , 2009 Share Posted 30 October , 2009 http://www.donjgrant.me.uk/ly03.htm Private James Harper LYON Native Barotse Regt. December 10, 1916 N/K dow:Kasama, S Africa of wounds received in German East Africa; ed:St Andrews U; br:2nd Lt Robert Lyon d 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 1 November , 2009 Share Posted 1 November , 2009 have you got this download? http://www.archive.org/details/rollofhonourroll00univ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlyon Posted 1 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2009 Thanks for these. The two entries which mention JHL by name are actually the ones that my original information came from. The University notes should be fairly reliable, as far as they go, because they were written in 1920 so the information will have been fresh in the informant's mind. Don Grant's note gives the same information, although he has a different rank - he tells me that he may have slipped up on that when he transcribed his notes. No mention of JHL or Kasama or Barotse in the Gutenberg book. So, beginning to despair : I have his family history from when he was born in Scotland to when he left University, followed by an apparent brick wall after that, but I am grateful for the prompt input. Many thanks. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 1 November , 2009 Share Posted 1 November , 2009 ok last attempt here http://samilitaryhistory.org/7/p07mayne.html now if he was regarded as police rather than army he may have been missed out on CWGC and for that matter SDGW, he may have been a police captain! http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&...ved=0CCAQ0AIwBw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlyon Posted 1 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2009 We're both using the same logic ! I had thought that the SAMHS ought to have an expert or three interested in the East African campaign, so I tried to have a message posted on their notice board. Sent it to "the Scribe" as directed, addressed him as Malcolm as per the minutes you have flagged up, and got a reply wondering who Malcolm was, this is South Africa not East Africa, and suggest you try Zambia. Last time I looked, my message hadn't even been added to the notice board. However, the minutes you have flagged up show hat there is indeed (at least) one expert after all, "Life Member Tim Jones", so next task is to work out how to contact him direct ... Thanks again, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 2 November , 2009 Share Posted 2 November , 2009 I am struggling to pin down two Lyon officers who were apparently involved. 1. James Harper Lyon is said by his University website to have been a Captain in "Native Barotse Regiment", died of wounds at Kasama on 10 December 1916. Nothing on CWGC nor MIC, and I can't find anything about a regiment with that precise name : it may or may not be the Rhodesa Native Regiment which left Salisbury for active service in East Africa in July 1916. Can anyone confirm any part of this, and/or add details of the action just before 10 December ? Dan Barotseland (the home of the Barotse tribe) was, for want of a better description, annexed by Cecil Rhodes in 1890 and divided into two protectorates; Northwestern and Northeastern Rhodesia. In 1911 these two were merged into one as Northern Rhodesia. I don't know if this is significant but there is a Medal Index Card for a J H Lyon of the Northern Rhodesian Police. Could this be your man? Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlyon Posted 2 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2009 Steve, What on earth are you doing still up at this time ?! This MIC is very helpful, many thanks indeed. As far as I know there was only one J H Lyon galloping about those parts, and if it is the same man then he certainly put himself about. His QSA was on the market recently "Queen’s South Africa 1899-1902, 4 clasps, Relief of Mafeking, Rhodesia, Orange Free State, Transvaal (20115 Sjt. J. H. Lyon, Brabant’s Horse). Sold with some copied research showing service with 2nd Brabant’s Horse, Driscoll’s Scouts and Border Scouts. Relief clasp earned with Rhodesia Regiment”. But I still can't reconcile it with the information on his University Roll of Honour, which has him as a Captain whereas this has him as a Scout. So I think we need to find which one one of these similarly named units was in a gunfight just before he died of wounds.... Thanks again. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 2 November , 2009 Share Posted 2 November , 2009 Dan I suggest you drop Harry (aka bushfighter on this forum) a Personal Message drawing his attention to this thread. He is the font of all knowledge on the more obscure actions and units of this campaign and I'm sure he can advise what units etc. were operating around that area. He may have details of the action concerned. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlyon Posted 2 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2009 Steve, That's exactly the pointer I was hoping for. Will do. Many thanks. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 2 November , 2009 Share Posted 2 November , 2009 Dan This is an interesting problem to solve. I'm in the USA for the next fortnight. When I return to my base in Portugal I'll go through my reference books. Luckily two books on the Rhodesian Native Regiment have been published recently and an excellent one on the Northern Rhodesia Police has been published by the Commonwealth & Empire Museum. The southern Rhodesians were very race conscious and virtually eliminated reference to their non-white units as soon as possible after the war. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlyon Posted 2 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2009 Harry, Thanks - your message arrived just as I finished figuring out how to send you a PM. Will look forward to hearing from you. You can get me on danlyon@globalnet.co.uk if you prefer. Are you a Lancashireman underneath ? I was privileged to wear the KORB cap badge 1974-1984 as a TA ACF Major based at Fulwood Barracks. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 18 November , 2009 Share Posted 18 November , 2009 Dan I've spent the afternoon on this puzzle but got nowhere. Perhaps James Harper Lyons originally served in the Barotse Native Police, which was merged into the Northern Rhodesia Police in 1911. There is no mention of him in the Northern Rhodesian Police histories, nor in the British South African Police and Rhodesia Native Regiment histories. The only fighting at Kasama occurred in November 1918. Perhaps he was convalescing in Kasama after fighting in German East Africa when he died of wounds. If I come across anything then I will let you know. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlyon Posted 18 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2009 Harry, Thanks for the effort. I think I have learned not to put any real weight on records like the University's own Roll of Honour, but if you credit them with some grammatical accuracy then it does indeed look as if he was wounded in some confrontation in German East Africa, and was then a casevac back to Kasama, where he died. Thanks again, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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