Pte Harold fox and Pals -9 Sherwood Foresters

[peter fox]

I've always assumed the attached photo showing my Grandfather (centre) and 2 pals in good spirits was taken somewhere near the front line whilst off duty sometime in 1917/18. However its been suggested that the background may not be real and that it may be a 'staged' photo. Other interesting features are that they all appear to be wearing what looks like mess tins on their heads and two of them are wearing watches which was apparantly not common amongst privates at that time.

The Battalions last action was in Sebourg on Nov 4th '18 and after the Armistice, my grandfather stayed with the battalion in France for 2/3 weeks before being transferred to the Queen Alexandra Military hospital (due to being gassed in the last action) where he stayed for about 4 weeks before being discharged.

I think its likely the photo may have been taken in France in the 2/3 weeks after the Armistice.

However I would welcome anyone's opinion as to whether it is a 'staged' photo and if so where it may have been taken.

Thanks.

Peter Fox.

[Paul Reed]

As there are no identifying features in the background, it could be anywhere. The lack of tunics and equipment would indicate it was taken some distance from the front line.

[KevinBattle]

I can understand you wanting to verify this photo and wish I could be more encouraging, but if he had been gassed in the last action on 4th November 1918, it is unlikely that he would have been "cheerful" enough to pose for this photograph. The lack of any horizon detail suggests a studio backcloth, rather than outdoors, and although I'm no expert of Western Front weather, doubt whether it would have been warm enough for shirt sleeves. There doesn't appear to be any military aspect to this. The belt for the chap on the right, seems more farmhand than soldierly. I think wristwatches would have been fairly common by the later stages of the war, being much more convenient than pocket watches.

If genuine, it would seem that the photo was taken when well away from any fighting. The strange array of implements they are posing with seems surreal unless they had been billeted at an abandoned cottage and found the brazier, teapot, hammer and some twigs.

Against that, I can't see the point of 3 lads turning up at a photographers studio and stripping down to shirtsleeves for a "comedy" photo when they could be killed the next day.

I think it more likely the photo was taken earlier in 1918, at the very least, without wishing to question it further. As usual, however, there will no doubt be some knowledgeable Pal to tell you it was taken on Friday August 16th 1918 at M Flashbangs studio at 21, Rue du Kodak, Paris!!

[ian turner]

Apart from their horsing around, it does not seem 'staged' and seems a genuine photo. That said I wonder if it is military? Something about their trousers and haircuts makes me wonder. Are they American?

[charley_bourne]

I'd say they're definitely outside. The lighting to me (I'm a photographer, not that it's in any way a qualification for this) looks like natural daylight.

The trousers the lad on the right is wearing seem to have a pinstripe.

[stevem49]

I would be surprised if he was gassed on 4th November 1918. Especially as he did not go to hosptial until 2/4 weeks later. Whilst the Battalions last Battle was 4th, they did continue the push forward following the Germans, finishing at Havay on 10th November. The enemy artillery where still a threat at this time. The Naval Div moved through the Sherwoods on 11th Nov. Men from the Battalion took part in the Victory parade in Mons on 15th and the photo could have been around that time. The remainder of the Battalion had a campfire concert so possible these men where preparing for it.

If he was gassed, then probably from picking up souvenirs after the war. It was fairly common and in fact an officer in 9th Bn gassed himself earlier in 1918!

Steve M

[peter fox]

I would be surprised if he was gassed on 4th November 1918. Especially as he did not go to hosptial until 2/4 weeks later. Whilst the Battalions last Battle was 4th, they did continue the push forward following the Germans, finishing at Havay on 10th November. The enemy artillery where still a threat at this time. The Naval Div moved through the Sherwoods on 11th Nov. Men from the Battalion took part in the Victory parade in Mons on 15th and the photo could have been around that time. The remainder of the Battalion had a campfire concert so possible these men where preparing for it.

If he was gassed, then probably from picking up souvenirs after the war. It was fairly common and in fact an officer in 9th Bn gassed himself earlier in 1918!

Steve M

Thank you all for your observations and comments. and Steve for your helpful information on the Battalians movements after the 4th November. They're all really interesting and genuinley helpful.

There seems to be a bit of a consensus that the photo was probably taken outside and hopefully therefore genuine rather than 'staged which I hope was the case, however the trousers of the chap on the right remain a puzzle.

I have just had another close look at my grandfathers medical discharge documents for any fresh clues to his movements at the end of the fighting and they state he was gassed in Nov '18 in France during service and the cause was not due to personal negligence, though it quotes him as stating that he did not initialy go to hospital.

If this possibly points to him being gassed in the fighting in the first few days of November then it may go against him being jovial enough for this photo in the following days after the Armistice. Perhaps the shirt sleeves and no jackets do point to a photo taken earlier in 1918 in warmer weather at a time when they were well away from the front line? However we can only guess.

Sadly my grandfather died in 1923 of internal complications alledgedly as a result if his gassing and the true story of the circumstances of the photo passed away with him.

Thanks once again for your suggestions, they definately have been a help.

[Kate Wills]

I don't get the impression of a staged photo, or of a fake background. It looks to me like three young men in a carefree moment, and the camera has caught that moment very well.

[ian turner]

One last guess - at camp on joining, and before full issue of uniform? That might explain the trousers, and the haircuts worry me too. They do not look "front line". But agreed it otherwise seems a genuine and, as Kate says, charming picture.

[stevem49]

Ian

Every 9th Bn photo that I have seen in camp just after joining were posed photos with rifles etc. Of course that would not rule out the possibility.

It could be taken in July 1918 when the Battalion/Brigade were out of the line. 14th/21st July at rest in Bois Du Froissart Camp, Hersin. Football matches, band concerts and the Battalion shooting Comp took place. Also Div Boxing. This would be an ideal time for the men to let their hair down and mix with other units. In fact the Bn played the RAMC at football. The prize for the Shooting Comp was a 5 franc canteen chit for each member of the team being the smallest. A good reason to look happy and to enjoy life.

Prior to that they had expected the german assault whilst after that they were constantly moving.

The only downside was on 19th when Pte Briggs met his fate and is buried at Hersin.

Steve m

[peter fox]

Thankyou all for your final comments. I also have a photo of my grandfather looking younger in uniform which I'm pretty sure would have been when he first joined up, so I do therefore favour a later 1918 date for the photo. Thanks Steve for your information on the July 'break' away from the lines. This could be a possibility, particularily with them looking dressed for warmer weather, However I guess they all must have become extremely hardy after being in the trenches in all weathers which does keep after the armistice as a possibility.

One last thought I have is that the medical discharge documents that I keep revisiting say that after 28 days in hospital my grandfathers health had improved greatly and it recomended he was Discharged to light duty amongst some other words I can't read on 7th jan 1919. On the Cover for Discharge Documents sheet it then says transferred to the reserve on 3rd February. Does this mean he was sent to some 'holding' reserve station for a while (which could be another possibility for the photo )or were you in reserve but sent home unless you needed to be recalled?

Anyway I'm pleased there is a consensus it was most likely to be a 'real' photo and not staged.

I also agree with Kate in that it does capture very well three young guys in a moment of relaxation enjoying themselves and having a laugh.

Thanks once again for all your helpful opinions.

Best Regards.

Peter.

[BRONNO]

On the Cover for Discharge Documents sheet it then says transferred to the reserve on 3rd February.

Peter.

Peter,

9th Battalion War Diary mentions the 3rd February 1919.

Demobilization. Lieutenant Gustard, R.Q.M.S. Parker and 22 Other Ranks leave for

demobilization. BRONNO.

[peter fox]

Thanks BRONNO. I don't have a copy of the war diaries but I have got Steve Morse's book on the 9th Battalion.

Upon reading his chapter on 1919 after your posting it made me realise that most of the privates were sent for demolbilisation and then home from France.

As my Grandfather was already in the UK in Alexandra hospital he probably would not have been one of the men referred to you in your reference. However as he was already in the UK when discharged, I guess that as per the 9th battalion men being demobilised in France, he most probably went home fairly quickly , which gives me my answer.

Thanks and Best Regards.

Peter.

[KevinBattle]

Let's leave it that you have a wonderful picture of your grandfather and a couple of pals having a fun moment away from the grim realities of War.

The When and Where are immaterial in the face of that happy memory.

Something to treasure and appreciate. Many of us would like something similar in our albums!!