Remembering ...

[Steven Broomfield]

Elsewhere, a thread has been running on the subject of the Remembering Today area. I do not intend, or wish, this to revisit the points raised in the thread, other than this.

Does your membership of this Forum (and, therefore, I suspect, your interest in the Great War) reflect a desire to "Remember", or is it because you are objectively interested in the history of the conflict and its associated subjects?

For myself, I am interested in the GW as an historical function: the military history has fascinated me since childhood. The social and political aspects interest me, too, but primarily I am intrigued by the military history of the war, and particularly as it affected (and still affects) the relationship between Great Britain and its Empire.

Now, that is not to say that I don't have a lump in the throat, or a shiver down the spine, when I visit a cemetery. Most visits to new towns or villages, or new churches or cathedrals, result in an attempt to find the war memorial; the sight of a CWGC sign in an English village is guaranteed to result in a diversion.

Yet, I am not a "rememberer": personally I can't (I feel) "remember" someone I never met, and with whom I have no connection. The Great War is, to all intents and purposes, the same to me as the Napoleonic Wars or the Siege of Troy. I suppose, given that my parents both served, the Second World War could be a war I "remember", but that, too, is "history" for me (albeit spiced with personal reminiscence). Interestingly, one of the most chilling battlefields have ever visited was Spion Kop some years ago. All alone on a scorchingly hot summer's day, it was the most eery experience I can ever recall.

I am not decrying those who approach the GW from the point of view of "Remembering": it just isn't for me, that's all.

But I would be interested to know how my views are seen from "the other side of the hill", so to speak. Am I in a minority? I don't know.

I'd appreciate any debate being kept friendly: one thing is for sure - one way or another, everyone on this Forum is doing their bit to keep the memory green. It's just that we might have different approaches, and different reasons why we do it.

I'm away for a few days, so I'll drop by on Sunday and see where this went (if anywhere).

[armourersergeant]

Broomers,

When I joined this forum I had an interest in WW1, a hankering for knowledge of the fighting but not that which followed. However after joining here I began to see things differently and I guess it was my Pals tour of 2005 that changed all that. I was not a cemetery junky.. was not but now I am. I still want to understand and investigate the battles and commanders but I also want to make sure that those that fell are not forgotten.

If I take my research on Snow and Forestier-Walker and perhaps more relevant Cecil Rawling, I have studied these men until I feel I know them. That may sound presumptuous but thats how I feel. With particular reference to Rawling, when I visited his grave I felt like I was visiting someone whom I knew. I do not just like to get the military side of the man but the man himself, his character is very important and thus that enables me to 'connect' better with the rounded man.

So I guess I am a rememberer, though not as avid as many.

Regards

Arm

[Jonathan Saunders]

Depends if your passive or active. For me, Remembrance and Research go hand in hand.

[David B]

I joined the forum to try and piece my grandfathers movements during the war, things that he never deigned to tell a young whipper snapper.

I lived with him for the first 21 years of my life - until he died, and the tales about the war were virtually non existant. Now of course, I kick myself

as I am sure stories would have been forthcoming if only I had asked, but in those days a kid was told only to speak if you were spoken to.

So I am left with the alternative to find out for myself exactly what he did and when. Remembrance I get from remembering things we did as a

family, suppose that I was lucky that I had as much time with him as I did. My father - well I suppose biologically he is but have no feelings oned

way or another as he went back to Jersey with I was 9 months old and there never was any contact at all - nothing, so why should I care about the

guy. Fortunately my mother found happiness in the last few years of her life with a wonderful man.

THe second WW was different as I was well and truly aware of what was going on, newspapers (probably gave you the mushroom treatment) and

the newsreels told one a lot of what was happening especially the good things. Radio helped, although living in country Victoria with no electricity

(until 1945) meant that the radio was on only a limited time each day. Cost a whole 2 shillings to recharge the battery once a fortnight!, so we were

restricted to one news bulletin per day. How things have changed.

[sw63]

I'm a rememberer and I am so absolutely proud of it.

I served in the army, I have an abiding interest in British military history, but I joined this forum to find out about my family members who served. I never knew them - but that's not the point. My family knew them, loved them, mourned them and remembered them and I'm damn sure they would want me and generations after me to remember them too.

If I discovered I had a relative who died in ,say, the Boer War or the Penninsular War I would want to remember them as well.

Simon

[melwar]

Does your membership of this Forum (and, therefore, I suspect, your interest in the Great War) reflect a desire to "Remember", or is it because you are objectively interested in the history of the conflict and its associated subjects?

But I would be interested to know how my views are seen from "the other side of the hill", so to speak. Am I in a minority? I don't know.

I started out as a 'rememberer' (and worse! the whole Anzac myth when I was much younger), but since reading things like 'Command on the Western Front' I've converted and am now studying the operational conduct of the battles for Mouquet Farm for a PhD. I find studying the actual conduct of the war itself just so interesting, and more than that, illuminating. It has a lot to say about why, where and what than the old catch-all 'futility' covers. Plenty wasn't futile at all! I would have to say, Steven, that we are in the minority, though. I recently went to a First World War Conference in London where the operational conduct was mentioned by only one paper and I more often than not got a disappointed "oh, so you study the actual combat, then" when talking to people about what I'm interested in. I find that kind of attitude interesting - I mean, without the fighting you don't get prisoners of war, or mutilated soldiers, or life in the trenches! But we're all different, and I can totally sympathise with an interest in remembrance and social aspects of the war. And have remembrance projects of my own, as evidenced by my signature!

[Nigel Marshall]

I don't remember where my initial interest in the Great War came from or to which aspect it drew me. I was very young though and was an avid reader on the war and collector of medals before leaving primary school.

It was difficult, growing up in my village to ignore the war entirely because I passed the War Memorial daily as I walked to school and back again. My journey would also take me part way through the avenue of memorial trees which commemorate those 14 fallen men of the Great War who called Scholes 'Home'.

My interest blossomed into a desire to know more about the people who took part in the war, generally a bottom - up view. The ordinary men who, given a time warp, could just as easily have been me, fascinate me.

I suppose that makes me a 'Rememberer', but even though I have researched some of the men in quite fine detail I do not share Arm's view that I 'know' any of my research subjects. I know of them, and know about them, but that is different.

I have been a battlefield visitor since the age of 19 when my Coldstream Guards CSM organised a 'Company Exercise' to the Somme, and I have returned many times since, although now personal preference, driven in part by family coinnection, makes me gravitate towards Ieper. The Menin Gate never fails to take my breath away. I feel some inexplicable sense of belonging when I go there.

Yes, I study the battles that were fought, but mainly to gain knowledge of how 'my men' were involved. I am no armchair general.

The people are the key for me.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Stephen Nulty]

I'm a "rememberer".

Like (I suspect) many, it started for me with genealogical research. I went to the Prescot War Memorial to get a picture of great-Uncle James' inscription and while I was stood there, it occurred to me that every year, we say "We Will Remember Them", but how can we do this if we don't know who they were?

So I decided to find a little more about how James Nulty came to be killed and buried at V-B. And six years later, I'm still doing it but now I feel I know so much more about aalmost all of the men named on the memorial, and others who weren't named. On 11th November, I will stand in front of the memorial, read the listed names and can then honestly say that I remember them.

It has been a fascinating journey so far, and I am hopeful that it will continue for a long time to come.

[geoff2050]

I started out with intrest only in finding out details of relatives who fought in the Great War.

However in my research I came across other areas of intrest and got side tracked away from my subject and followed many good threads.

Not a day can go by without going on to the forum to look at the latest posts.

I class myself as both to remember and the interest in the history it sheds.

Geoff

[melwar]

...it occurred to me that every year, we say "We Will Remember Them", but how can we do this if we don't know who they were?

Me too, Stephen, so I like at least to be able to put some faces to names. Sometimes I leave photographs at graves, and have noticed that these graves then get particular attention from people who come later (leaving poppies and things), I think its a useful thing to do. It sort of helps people connect to the men buried there.

[Kate Wills]

Depends if your passive or active. For me, Remembrance and Research go hand in hand.

Same here. I can remember without researching, but research begets remembrance.

[4thGordons]

My initial interest came from a family member - but one who died 51 years before I was born so, as the original post indicated, it is difficult to speak of "remembering"

The Great War has become a consuming research interest, stimulated in part by standing in a cemetery on the Western Front as a 12 year old and wondering Why?...and then How?....

For me research is a vehicle for seeking understanding, and understanding requires knowledge of the past (in this context perhaps aka "remembering"), not so much an individual but a broader human experience, part of what made us what we (collectively and consciously or not) are. In a very real sense I think I am seeking to answer that 12 year old's simplistic questions.

One cannot remember what one has not experienced but one can forget that the experience happened. Perhaps that is why, in his poem, Sassoon asked "Have you forgotten yet?" rather than "do you still remember?". I think there is a distinction and I prefer his formulation. I cannot remember the men, but nor will I forget that their experiences happened.

I am not religious, nor spiritual and I do not think of myself as particularly sentimental but the overwhelming sense of a shared human experience is what draws me back repeatedly to the Battlefields. The enormity of this collective experience however, is often comprehensible to me only in small (and yes sometimes individual) stories, and so research leads me to "remember" but remembering is not an end in itself, the purpose is to learn and, hackneyed as it is, to progress and avoid repeating.

I often find myself caught up in the technical details of weapons and uniforms - an area I enjoy and in which I have some minor knowledge - but I must admit to sometimes feeling uneasy after writing a particularly anorak-wrapped post about the pattern of riveting on a sub variant of the SMLE that somehow I have been distracted from the real point.

There is clearly something personal or cultural in my interest however. I have visited many of the significant battlefields of the US civil war since I have been in the US and despite an intellectual appreciation for the importance and enormity of the events which took place there, and the significance of the human experience - they do not spark the same interest in me.

Chris - who probably shouldn't contemplate such things so late at night.

[KevinBattle]

I don't think you can simply be either a Rememberer or a Researcher, as very soon, whichever camp you start in, becomes entwined with the other as I don't think a full understanding can come from just one point of view.

I may find that someone posts an eloquent tribute to a long dead relative, but it may not "mean" anything to me unless there is some other connection, same day as one of "mine" died, or from the same area, unit or battle, but whilst I may not personally be involved in the "Remembrance" per se of that person, I accept their right to post such a message.

Similarly, some arcane piece of equipment or comment may not be "my" type of research, but I can either read it or not, my choice, no one forces me. I soak up what I read and move on, sometimes only making a connection many months later that a piece of the jigsaw is now in place.

You may want to remember a great grandfather, but don't you then want to know what he did and why he fell where he did?

If you want to research a regiment or a battle, how can you not get involved with the stories of those who fought and died there, maybe a pivotal moment that saved the front from collapsing and changing the course of history?

There can be very few people without ancestors that were involved in some way with WW1, sooner or later you are going to find them, and remember them.

I doubt you will stop there, it leaves a story untold. Can you move on without finding it out?

[CT-Guards]

For those who are not 'rememberer's' what will you be doing whilst most of the nation follow the two minutes silence, or what will you be watching or indeed where will you be standing on Remembrance Sunday? Is it likely you will be thinking of research or remembrance?

Not knowing the fallen man is relevant but, it is each to his own on how he pays his respects.

I'll be paying my respects and will remember them as always, and I remain grateful for the freedom that we all have.

That's my bit i'm going to ground know!

[stevew]

For those who are not 'rememberer's' what will you be doing whilst most of the nation follow the two minutes silence

I think the 'rememberers' are in the minority - I'd say most of the nation don't give a hoot. I maybe wrong, but that is my perception

[squirrel]

An interesting and thought provoking submission Mr B.

I had one uncle who served in WW1 and volunteered for the second round as well but he never spoke about it. My father was a TA Gunner in the 1930’s so I was told quite a lot about 18pdr guns, most of which I didn’t understand fully. He was in the Home Guard in WW2 and told me about that as well. One of his brothers was killed in WW1 and, as I understood it, one died in WW2 as well. I was told little of the circumstances of the loss of either of them.

My interest in the British Army was focused on the Napoleonic period, with occasional forays in to the Victorian period and slowly approaching closer to WW1.

If I think back, the thing that aroused my interest in WW1 was the film “O What a Lovely War” when it was first released and placed a question mark in my mind – could it really have been as awful as that?

At some later time, the uncle who had survived WW1 gave me the framed medals, plaque and photograph of the brother who was killed in WW1 and I made up my mind to visit his grave although this took a number of years to achieve.

A lengthy period of illness gave me time to study and read about WW1 in more detail and so I started with one battalion to see where it fitted in and what it did, what battles it was involved with etc. The visit to see my uncle’s grave gave some time on the battlefields and really brought things in to focus. I was struck by the sheer scale of the casualties; the numbers of names on memorials and the numbers in the multitude of cemeteries. I had also discovered the vast resource of the GWF and the wealth of knowledge so readily shared which allowed me to find out more about WW1 and research family members whom I discovered had served.

While remembering them, I found that remembrance was important to me and that to spare a couple of minutes to pay resects to an unknown soldier, or the names on a memorial, was important to me also. I visit as many cemeteries as I can where there are casualties from the battalion I started with.

Visiting the Western Front with small groups has led me to more cemeteries, memorials and battlefields, with more knowledge gained and stories told and has encouraged further reading and research.

Essentially, for me at least, research and reading feeds remembrance and remembrance feeds the research and reading. Each is an integral part of the other.

[CT-Guards]

Broomers has started something here!

I must add that I understand why people do not take part in the Remebering thread, however we are only given as a nation one day to remember our fallen - it is this thread on this forum that gives us a vehicle for continuation to remember each day.

[dycer]

It is an open secret that whilst I don't mind the daily Forum Remembrance,nor individual acts of Remembrance I switch off at the supplementary comments e.g. "Thank you for my Freedom",etc.I fully recognise,however,that freedom of expression was a hard one right gained partly in WW1 and I will not mock for that reason.

Due to accident of birth I had two Uncles killed in WW1.I grew up with the practical things that were found to be useful to a future generation e.g a WW1 MatchBox-cover given as a Present,which was in daily use when I was growing up,as the main means of heating was a coal fire.I have to confess that whilst the Cover still sits in a hearth,it is unlikely to assist in the lighting of any more fires,due to the advancement of technology.

If we can get over the individual remembrance syndrome,we can help and learn from others who are seeking but will never learn an absolute truth.

George

[keithmroberts]

I started out hoping to find out a little about the Grandfathers I never knew, and that led to some family history, but then I tried to find out about the war service of the one grandfather who took part in the great war. That was a mistake. His surviving records amount to a MIC and his name on the medal roll. I have his medals, but any other family documents vanished in the household of my late uncle, and I have pretty much given up on my grandfather.

I wanted to visit the ground, despite that, and started reading, as well as visiting the Western Front. I ended up forking out for Linesman to help me understand, and there I was. At the same time my limited family history research seemed to focus on Greengates, once a modest textile village outside Bradford, now just a suburb, where the family seemed to be based for most of Victoria's reign, and a little longer.

A chance meeting with a local history researcher has launched me into researching two local memorials, one of participants, and one commemorating the dead of the village. Living 250 miles away its quite hard to find time to dig in the local archives, but as my working career winds down, I have just switched to a 48 week year to give myself some more free time.

So, I am to some degree a remembering type, but I hope that I will continue to try and understand.

Keith

[melwar]

For those who are not 'rememberer's' what will you be doing whilst most of the nation follow the two minutes silence, or what will you be watching or indeed where will you be standing on Remembrance Sunday? Is it likely you will be thinking of research or remembrance?

My supervisor has written at least 5 books on the Great War and has never been to an Anzac Day dawn service. Researcher, not rememberer.

[Roger H]

Similar to rgartillery, I joined the forum as part of my research into both my Grandfathers role in the Great War. My interest has widened to that of learning more about the conflict. "Remembering" inevitably becomes part of it, but for me, is not the raison d'etre.

Roger

[JimSmithson]

I can't see how one can be actively involved in any kind of research of the Great War without actively bringing to mind events and personalities and, if it leads to some written outcome bringing about a retention of those events. All of which belongs to the act of remembering.

Jim

[dfaulder]

Possibly we ought to explore the difference between merely remembering (which I guess many researchers will do) and taking part in an "act of remembrance". The format of the latter I believe is far more prescribed and consequently may not be for everyone - but that does not prevent them remembering.

[melwar]

I can't see how one can be actively involved in any kind of research of the Great War without actively bringing to mind events and personalities and, if it leads to some written outcome bringing about a retention of those events. All of which belongs to the act of remembering.

Jim

I don't think that does necessarily belong to the act of remembering in this context. I think that if we are comparing researching and remembering, the remembering part is personalising it - attending memorial services, laying wreaths, finding stories and individuals, putting faces to names. But researching is trying to understand and explain events. This leads to remembrance, but a different kind in which personal acts of commemoration can be absent.

[peterhogg]

I was always interested in the Great War through my father's interest and his experiences serving in the Second World War. I still have the complete Twenty Years After Series, which I read as a child, but it was Middlebrook who really hit me over the head with his graphic descriptions of July 1 that left an impression on me that remains to this day--one that is both intellectual and emotional. i run pretty hot and cold on the matter.

In Canada, I am a researcher. In France I am a rememberer.

(sounds a bit like a cop-out, I know, but it's an honest answer)