Publicity -v- Research

[MelPack]

I received the following email from a newly found relative of one of the missing soldiers today:

" xxxxx's youngest sister, my great aunt only passed away a few months ago and throughout her life she had spoken that she had wanted to find him, hopefully now you have.

Many many many thanks."

It is tragic that the old lady died without knowing of the possibility of closure about the fate of her brother but it also reminded me of precisely the reason why the Fromelles Genealogy Project was established in the first place.

This case amply demonstrates that the exclusive reliance the MoD/CWGC chose to place on publicity alone to alert relatives was never going to work and was certainly never going to find relatives for more than twenty to thirty of the missing soldiers.

The fact that 160+ soldiers now have relatives prepared to participate in the DNA testing programme is entirely down to our research and hard graft and even more hard graft.

Anyone who suggests that future publicity surrounding the initial burials commencing in February or the jamboree next July is going to bring in a flood of new relatives is either exceedingly dimwitted or just malevolent.

Mel

[Auimfo]

This case amply demonstrates that the exclusive reliance the MoD/CWGC chose to place on publicity alone to alert relatives was never going to work and was certainly never going to find relatives for more that twenty to thirty of the missing soldiers.

That's exactly what I've been saying to the Australian authorities all along. Like you, they wouldn't be anywhere near the numbers of descendant's they currently have if it wasn't for our group actually doing the hard yards to identify and locate them.

But I bet that at some point in time our respective Ministers will announce how many descendants 'came forward' as a result of their successful publicity campaigns.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Scotty]

But I bet that at some point in time our respective Ministers will announce how many descendants 'came forward' as a result of their successful publicity campaigns.

Tim,

Over the past 18 months I've been unfortunate enough to deal with 2 Australian Ministers in respect to my own research. As a result of these encounters, I'm not confident the hard graft you and Mel have undertaken will be correctly credited. I hope I'm proved wrong. I certainly hope all involved are in some way thanked sincerely for their efforts. Scott

[ianw]

Well done to those involved in all that hard graft.

Yes, it would seem likely that some jobsworth will try to claim the benefit of it. I suppose a possible solution is to keep a tab of the "hits" the amateurs get and then tell the press. I certainly agree that some recognition of the work done is deserved.

[Auimfo]

I suppose a possible solution is to keep a tab of the "hits" the amateurs get and then tell the press.

I'm way ahead of you mate.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[ianw]

Well done, Tim!

I am sure you will keep us informed.

[Steven Broomfield]

But I bet that at some point in time our respective Ministers will announce how many descendants 'came forward' as a result of their successful publicity campaigns.

Cheers,

Tim L.

Easy to work out when.

When's your next election?

[MelPack]

Ian

I know exactly which relatives were aware of Fromelles from the outset and those picked up along the way by the sterling work of local groups.

One of the reasons why I can be certain is that the main email contact address on the CWGC Fromelles site was defective until 1st July ie two months into the operation !

I also know which functionary was fully aware of that problem and chose to do absolutely nothing about it.

I also know the particularly egregious functionary that sent me an email on 1st July attempting to suggest that there had not been any problem in the first place. A kafkaesque proposition that was about as persuasive as the dossier on WMD.

Mel

[Keith Miller]

Mel is absolutely correct. Relatives have to be sought.

I am one of those who came forward without the need for prompting, but only because I had, over the last couple of years, been looking into family history.

My mother was 3 when her father was killed. She, and my grandmother, never knew he was killed at Fromelles. I was given the guide and register to the Loos Memorial that was sent out in the 1920s in 1976 after my mother died. She always thought he was killed at or near Loos. Fromelles is not mentioned in the guide. I went to the Memorial in 1982 thinking he died there. I suspect there must be others out there who may be aware of a relative's name on a panel at Loos, but do not appreciate the connection to Fromelles.

I began to look for history of 182 MGC a year ago, found Long,Long Trail, and subsequently GWF, and suddenly realised link to 61st S Midland and that Fromelles was where he was killed. Given book as Christmas present to learn more.

When article appeared in D Telegraph Sat 2nd May and on BBC news Tues 5th with website address,

I visited, sent email and waited................................................................

[Michelle79]

Hi Keith,

You are entirely correct that the particulars of your case make you one of the exceptions - I have always thought it would solely be close family members such as grandchildren (of which I'm sure there are very few) or WWI/genealogy enthusiasts who have done their own family trees who may come forward of their own accord. The vast majority of these men simply will not be covered by either of these categories whereas you fit into both.

You are also entirely correct in assuming that even the closest of relatives may be under a false impression as to the place their loved one died - I have spoken to quite a number of relatives now and not one knew their relative died at Fromelles prior to my telling them they had. I have been told by grandchildren and nieces/nephews that they thought their relative died at the Somme, Bethulme etc but never once Fromelles. A lot of this stems from the fact that families were given incorrect information at the time and this has filtered down through the generations. I have a photograph of the family gravestone of one of the men, George Coull, on which he is commemorated and it states he was reported missing at The Battle of the Somme on 19th July 1916 and aftewards reported dead in Nov 1916. Even although his close relatives had seen news reports about Fromelles and knew George's body had never been recovered they never made the connection due to the incorrect information about The Somme.

I genuinely believe that people will see the news pieces on the TV or in newspapers but simply not connect it to their own families - there was no way I could know my second cousin was one of the men despite the fact I am a keen genealogist and keep up-to-date with such things so I can't see how those who do not share my interests would have any idea without being sought out and informed.

Regards

Michelle

[Keith Miller]

I have recently had contact with a previously unknown second cousin.

A gentleman in his eighties who, when I spoke to him, firstly recalled reading the half page article in the Telegraph on July 30th, and then remembered his mother telling him about her Uncle who was killed in WW1, when she was aged 16.

A perfect candidate for mtDNA, with some knowledge, but nonetheless had not made the connection.

Other second cousins had parents, who, although nieces of my grandfather and also appropriate, were too young to remember and would never have come forward unless located.

A task I had to undertake unaided, when I happened by chance to discover, that, as a son of daughter, I was useless.

[Michelle79]

Hi Keith,

I'm familiar with your family tree (the photographs of Albert and all the artefacts you have are fantastic) and I'm sure your case was the one that prompted the drafting of the DNA Explanation which was posted up on the board all those months ago! I'm glad you managed to find such a perfect MtDNA match in the end; great work

Your experiences with your distant cousins certainly also serve as a great demonstration of the points on this thread.

Regards

Michelle

[Fedelmar]

Far be it from me to appear cynical about the 'powers that be' and the senseless decisions they make. However, the bottom line is that dead soldiers don't pay taxes.

To my mind that does not give them the right to make uninformed decisions as they have been doing based on a criteria detriment to those soldiers.

Every soldier has a right to have a headstone on his grave. (Mind you I am not so naive to not take into account that in some cases that is not always possible).

Rest assured that these arrogant and ignorant functionaries (love that word Mel) will be called to account at the end of the day and will end up with the proverbial 'egg on their faces'. As I am sure all those involved can tell you, the boys have 'ways' of seeing that their stories are told.

As Tim said, we have matters well in hand in Australia ... you just have to bounce up and down on your seats with excitement (as I am doing) for a few more days yet!!!

Bright Blessings

Sandra

PS:

I would like to congratulate Mel & Victoria and their team, plus all of the other willing helpers who have worked so lovingly and respectfully against several odds to see that the UK boys are 'brought home'.

You may not win the war but you certainly have fought and won many battles along the way.

Well done you lot.

I am proud and honoured to have come to know you all and I am sure I can speak for Sherlock (Tim) on that too.

[Michelle79]

As Tim said, we have matters well in hand in Australia ... you just have to bounce up and down on your seats with excitement (as I am doing) for a few more days yet!!!

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Hi Sandra,

You've got me intrigued now; I shall await developments with baited breath!

Regards

Michelle

P.S. Thanks for the kind words as always (I know Mel and V would say the same)

[Fedelmar]

I am so excited and so pleased for the boys ... here is the awaited news:

http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2009/national/fromelles/

http://www.theage.com.au/national/war-and-...91106-i28t.html

http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-stor...91106-i28u.html

http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-stor...91106-i28v.html

http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-stor...91106-i28w.html

http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-stor...91106-i28x.html

[Waddell]

Well done Sandra and Tim.

Great radio interview Tim.

"Chatty Grandmother"?

Scott

[Fedelmar]

Be careful young Scott

Perhaps you didn't spend enough time with me in Canberra

And yes ... have 2 granddaughters and 3 grandsons

Thank you for your thoughts.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[green_acorn]

Sandra, Tim, Melvyn and Victoria,

Congratulations to each of you, and all the others involved in the Fromelles Project, for the recognition, so well deserved in The Age and other newspapers.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Scotty]

Congratulations to all involved. It's great to see credit given to those who thoroughly deserve it. Scotty.

[Fedelmar]

Thanks Hendo & Scotty.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Fedelmar]

I missed this one yesterday as it appeared in another paper.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/brin...91106-i25d.html

[topsey1234]

I missed this one yesterday as it appeared in another paper.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/brin...91106-i25d.html

Well done and great public recognition for every one's hard work over a number of years.

I've been particularly interested in Peter Barton going on the record in this article and is quoted as saying:

"And there could be many more, according to an expert on European battlefields, Peter Barton, who says German war records reveal there could be as many as 35 undiscovered graves in the same area.

"The Munich research has revealed more graves in more locations than anyone could have reasonably expected - 35 other sites to date, not including Pheasant Wood,'' he says. ''This means that fresh government policy on war graves of this kind is now essential."

Has there been any government statement/reaction regarding this particular point as clearly the the whole Fromelles project is a work in progress. Peter's statements appear not to have reached the UK. So far much of the research has gone unfunded and is supported by the dedication of volunteers. I think its about time funding was sought for this work of international importance. It strikes me that here in the UK this is the sort of work that can be helped by the Heritage Lottery Fund. Otherwise the project could take years to resolve the question of other graves in the area. Funding could also give the opportunity to create an archive and resource for future generations to understand and learn about what happened.

Richard

[Fedelmar]

Thanks Richard ... I know Mel & Veronica have been working very hard on theirs boys. Veronica did respond to your post yesterday.

As it's Sunday here I have not seen anything in the papers in response. A case of wait and see.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[topsey1234]

Thanks Richard ... I know Mel & Veronica have been working very hard on theirs boys. Veronica did respond to your post yesterday.

As it's Sunday here I have not seen anything in the papers in response. A case of wait and see.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Sandra

This is in today's UK Sunday press. Interestingly there is mention that all 250 remains have revealed DNA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...near-Somme.html

Yes its been a great team effort by every one. Having seen the fantastic efforts by all concerned I was wanting to raise the issue of creating a permanent international archive/memorial using British, Australian, French, and German information, not just to tell the story but to allow future study. The technology exists to put all the documents on line and allow further study and analysis. There is also a need to discover the undiscovered in terms of the German Archive work as thats the great unknown. If there are 1685 missing currently I for one would like to see that research continue into what happened to them with proper resourcing. It would require lobbying of governments and identifying sources of funding if the support is there to create any archive.

Whilst my suggestion takes things to a new level it would build on all the great work every one had done in all the different countries.

Richard

[Victoria Burbidge]

Before any backing (financial or otherwise) can be sought, evidence must be provided. I’ve already explained that the research is ongoing into whether or not these graves still exist or if they were recovered after the Armistice. I am currently drowning in documentation relating to the recovery of the remains of many hundreds of British and Australian men and Peter also has other routes to follow and until this research is complete, we are not in a position to make any approach to either the British or Australian governments.

Richard, I appreciate how eager you are to see this matter resolved, but many of us are in the same boat. My grandfather’s brother is one of the missing from the 1915 attack. Of the 1,537 men killed on 9th May 1915, more than 1,300 are missing. I don’t believe that many of these men would have been buried by the Germans, but as the figures given in the German documentation did not specify the date that these graves were created (or, indeed, the nationality of the men who lie within them), we are none the wiser. If the information is there, we will find it and will then be in a position to move forward.

Your suggestions for an archive are appreciated, but are not new. It’s one of the reasons that I agreed to represent the British in Fromelles and I can assure you that the archive is growing. I should know – I started it.

V.