Unknown Cap badge GVR

[Solent]

Jim

you are a star mate thanks so much for doing this really appreciated. Do you still have the cap badge and collar insignia ?
 

I will put this phot to the experts for Medal identification. And try to get it enhanced professionally 

 

Jim is it possible to scan one at a time in separate pictures please.

 

many thanks Jim do you have location for any of them and a valid date that would make my year 👏

 

Frogsmile (what’s your finest name  my friend) many thanks 

 

Mike.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Solent said:

Jim

you are a star mate thanks so much for doing this really appreciated. Do you still have the cap badge and collar insignia ?
 

I will put this phot to the experts for Medal identification. And try to get it enhanced professionally 

 

Jim is it possible to scan one at a time in separate pictures please.

 

many thanks Jim do you have location for any of them and a valid date that would make my year 👏

 

Frogsmile (what’s your finest name  my friend) many thanks 

 

Mike.

Glad to help in a small way Mike.  It’s fantastic to see such rare photos.

[PRC]

Hi @pbaker163 and welcome to the forum.

 

Hopefully an admin will split this off into it's own thread as I'm not sure that any of the previous responses will assist in dealing with your query. That will also give you a chance to give us a name as I've no doubt the collective brains trust of the forum, (plus me!), can turn something up

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Solent]

On 17/06/2021 at 04:33, PRC said:

Hi @pbaker163 and welcome to the forum.

 

Hopefully an admin will split this off into it's own thread as I'm not sure that any of the previous responses will assist in dealing with your query. That will also give you a chance to give us a name as I've no doubt the collective brains trust of the forum, (plus me!), can turn something up

 

Cheers,

Peter

Yes Frogsmile is 100% correct. I have attached a photo of the two cap badges side by side.

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Solent said:

Yes Frogsmile is 100% correct. I have attached a photo of the two cap badges side by side.

 

 

Just to be clear the design was noticeably different for each Sovereign, so your photo is not comparing like with like.  I wouldn't wish to confuse the inquirer.

Edited 16 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Solent]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Just to be clear the design was noticeably different for each Sovereign, so your photo is not comparing like with like.  I wouldn't wish to confuse the inquirer.

Now your splitting hairs lol yes one is GvR and the other is GV1R 

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, Solent said:

Now your splitting hairs lol yes one is GvR and the other is GV1R 

It’s important to bear in mind that the origins of the simple, cypher cap badge, date way back as insignia worn by other ranks in so-called ‘garrison staff’ appointments, such as military staff clerks, garrison sergeants major, garrison QMS, garrison librarians, district recruiters, barracks department staff, and military prisons staff, to mention just the most high profile.  This was a way to cost capture their employment numbers and cost.  Ergo cypher cap badges exist for Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII (briefly), George VI, and Elizabeth II.  Over that long period many of the posts became civilianised and others were instead permitted to retain the badges of the corps from whence they came (e.g. ASC, RAOC, AGC, of military staff clerks), and this had led, over time, to the MPSC, Pensioner Recruiters, and Norfolk Yeomanry becoming the only surviving corps retaining a cypher cap badge by the time of George VI.  It’s only the photographic evidence provided via the internet to a wide ranging audience that has revealed this full history to the light of day, so hence the errors made by Kipling and King that were repeated by Edward’s, Gaylor, and various others. 
 

NB.  It’s an unfortunate fact of history that whereas the cap badges worn by officers were listed and described in their ‘dress regulations’, those of other ranks were not so described in their equivalent ‘clothing regulations’.  This has made it much more difficult to track the practices of the latter.

Edited 17 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

17 hours ago, pbaker163 said:

I'm going to confuse things...As being trying to patch holes  my Grandfathers servivce... He enlised into E Surrey Regiment 26/5/16 (unconfimed he tried to get to front underage) eventually called up again 18-1-18 Posted to No.5 Officer Cadet Battalion Trinity College Cambridge was commissoned into 3rd Batt Norfolk Regiment -Felixstowe 29/5/1918  then I struggle where he went Medal Record shows France 18/9/18

 

Confusion yes , but as it seems your question is being answered here and hasn't been split into a new thread it seems I might as well add something.

 

As @FROGSMILE alluded to, as dismounted infantry serving in Egypt & Palestine, the 1/1st Norfolk Yeomanry were converted into the 12th (Norfolk Yeomanry) Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment in February 1917. It's been a subject of unresolved debate as to what capbadge they wore while still out in the Middle East. However in April 1918 they were one of many units rushed to France to make good the losses suffered by the British Army in the face of the German Spring Offensive. From what little photographic evidence is available, following the change of headgear, the other ranks of the 12th Battalion while in France were wearing the Britannia capbadge of the Norfolk Regiment, not the GVR capbadge of the Yeomanry. Of course this may be due also to the receipt of drafts from the UK, so there may have been a mix of cap badges on display. The jury is out on what the Officers capbadge might have been due to a dearth of contemporary photographic evidence.

 

As a Territorial Force unit and so intended for Home Defence only, the men of the pre-war Norfolk Yeomanry were offered the chance to also sign for overseas service in September 1914. Those that did became the new 1/1st, (see above). Those that didn't became the new 2/1st. And to provide replacement drafts for the unit serving overseas, a new 3/1st was created as a training unit.

 

The Military Services Act of 1916 did away with such distinctions and reduced likelihood of using cavalry in most Theatres of War made such home service units surplus to requirements. The 2/1st became a cyclist unit, (merging for a shortwhile in 1917 with it's equivalent from the Suffolk Yeomanry). By the timescale concerned for your man the unit was in Ireland and would remain there.

 

The 3/1st was disbanded in early 1917.

 

Before I tie myself too much in knots trying to cover every eventuality, it really would be best if you gave us a name.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 17 June , 2021 by PRC
Add date for overseas service obligation

[pbaker163]

On 16/06/2021 at 19:33, PRC said:

Hi @pbaker163 and welcome to the forum.

 

Hopefully an admin will split this off into it's own thread as I'm not sure that any of the previous responses will assist in dealing with your query. That will also give you a chance to give us a name as I've no doubt the collective brains trust of the forum, (plus me!), can turn something up

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks for the warm welcome and rapid responses... do you suggest I start a new thread or continue disscussion here once I've taken to trust the forum (not used to posting on public searchable forums) Will likely be three sections  Pre OTB, OTB, and post Comission for my G-Father plus a number of other potential threads arising from other family WWI pictures.... Query on copyright of reproduction of images etc on here... some were likely to historically have been commercial & some personal printed on postcard backing... how can i tell which is ok to post? Similar re information researched or paid for from other sites/sources what is OK to post what is not? How are my families personal photographs protected... how can i protect them other than posting at low res?

Edited 17 June , 2021 by pbaker163

[PRC]

23 minutes ago, pbaker163 said:

do you suggest I start a new thread or continue disscussion here

 

My personal preference would be a new thread as this really has nothing to do with the Miltary Provost Corps and so stops discussion of that topic. I for one would also have been put off from answering, (until the magic word Norfolk cropped up) as with my low level of knowledge I would have assumed that in anything with over 20 responses I had nothing to add There may be others of a similar mindset out there.

 

27 minutes ago, pbaker163 said:

once I've taken to trust the forum (not used to posting on public searchable forums)

 

Can I suggest an alternative approach. Start a new thread and post his name and a summary of what you already know, including his pre-service civil stuff like birth \ birthplace and family that is in the public domain, (to prevent duplication of effort) - light blue touch paper and see what the forum can turn up. If you feel comfortable with the response and think we've hit a brickwall that could be helped by posting an image, then you may want to consider cropping to the salient details or watermarking the image. Similarly the same options apply if you think we are missing an avenue that should be explored if we saw the image.

 

Upside would be that the information provided might explain some of the other pictures without you having to post them.

 

And at a miminum, at least with a name we can tell you if there is a surviving officer file at the National Archive which you could then arrange to visit and see - if you haven't already done so!

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-officers-after-1913/

 

Whats been discussed here so far would then be incidental to such a thread.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[SteveE]

On 16/06/2021 at 19:23, FROGSMILE said:

The regiment famously fought in Gallipoli and one sub-unit formed from Royal retainers at the then King's country home at Sandringham disappeared in action (a BBC TV drama was made about this).  It was this special connection with the Sovereign's favourite home that seems to have led to the regiment's special title.

Whilst you’re detailing the Norfolk Yeomanry are you perhaps in danger of starting a new myth with this paragraph? 😉😄

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, SteveE said:

Whilst you’re detailing the Norfolk Yeomanry are you perhaps in danger of starting a new myth with this paragraph? 😉😄

Yes you’re right Steve, I had added the last sentence subsequently and doesn’t read well, I’ll change it.  Thanks for pointing it out. 👍

Edited 18 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SteveE]

36 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes you’re right Steve, I had added the last sentence subsequently and doesn’t read well, I’ll change it.  Thanks for pointing it out. 👍

Apologies Frogsmile, I should have been less cryptic with my post but you’ve missed my point... unless I’m mistaken surely the “sub unit” you describe was the King’s Company 1/5th Norfolk Regiment and nothing to do with the Norfolk Yeomanry you’re detailing?

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

52 minutes ago, SteveE said:

Apologies Frogsmile, I should have been less cryptic with my post but you’ve missed my point... unless I’m mistaken surely the “sub unit” you describe was the King’s Company 1/5th Norfolk Regiment and nothing to do with the Norfolk Yeomanry you’re detailing?

 

Steve

Ah yes, of course, duh!  I’ve mixed my units if not my metaphors.  Another edit to follow.  Thank you👍